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I’m new here so this should be under some other comments I beleive. But reading a little on this site it seem ther is a common misconception relating to resurrection. Resurrection is a process not a result. To stand before God and receive your reward.some receive a return to existencefrom the grave some remain in the grave already judged because the did not call on the name of christ. Jesus was given a kingship over the living and the dead, in that he was head is those given life and the keeper of those left in the grave awaiting the coming destruction. It is sad that only a few find the narrow path. It is however a life saying work to spread the word.
Once Gods right to decide right and wrong, his soverinty was called into question, no one could be destroyed until the question is answered. Being loving we wish all to be saved, but those who chose other paths have God’s word it can be played out once and they will recieve the reward earned.. GOD IS BOND BY HIS WORD AMONG OTHER THINGS It also helps to keep track of the fact that there is only one Savior God, and one savior lower case from among us Jesus. One King,over all, one king. Lower case Jesus over us now.
Hi Traveler. Your comments about the resurrection process made me think of some questions that might make for an interesting discussion. You are welcome to respond if you are so inclined.
Ultimately who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally lost?
Will a child that dies before the age of accountability have a resurrection opportunity?
The people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Noah. Will they have a resurrection opportunity?
Old civilizations in South America never had access to the Bible that we know of. Would good people who lived according to their God provided conscience have any future hope of a resurrection process?
How can anyone before Christ be saved, not having accepted Jesus as their personal savior?
I think it would be interesting to consider scriptures relating to these questions if you would like. Or perhaps you want to consider another topic.
“Will a child that dies before the age of accountability have a resurrection opportunity?”
These subjects are difficult although clear, But hard to relate to a mixed audience, not wanting to weaken those with a weaker understanding. The law given by God is quite clear on the accountability of a child who is under age, it depends on the parents/head of the household. Jesus as an example although a Son of God, was adopted by Joseph, and so came to be under the law of condemnation. The law of condemnation was for all of humanity a judgment, if you did not live free of sin that is. Had Jesus not presented himself to be baptized, do Gods will, while in slaves form, he would have died under this law. So that’s the simple answer.
In all this, people forget that humanity left Gods path when our parents did. We all are considered dead as long as we are off spring of Adam. Now here again we see the importance of frame of mind. The answering of the question of God’s right to decide right and wrong has as many facets as Humanity and the Angels attempts to find life apart from God and his suggested direction. One of these attempts was ask for when man ask for perfect law, which they were warned about, in that it would condemn them, as it did. We ask for Kings, which never worked out very well. Many direction have been tried, war for example and so on.
(1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?”.
In reality we have “self evident truth” placed in front of us, as the creation. In that creation relating to humanity there is a law or awarness written into us you could say, by our nature. We have a sense of right and wrong. It’s on this base that mankind before Jesus and after, was judged or forgiven. Remember we are the offspring of Abraham who did not know Jesus or was ever under the law given to Israel.
14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.
“people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Noah. Will they have a resurrection opportunity?”
All will receive a resurrection, to life/return to existence, or to remain in the grave awaiting the coming destruction. Outside of Jesus no man is fit for life, but must be forgiven. We are not Judges. Resurrection is a process carried out by God through Jesus, not the result of life or death/destruction.
There is one more interesting aspect of this “question of Sovereignty” until it is answered no being can be destroyed. God is bond by his word and the law he lives by to allow the question to reach it’s conclusion. This really shows why an “Over-view” is necessary. With out this frame work, questions that are answered simply in the Bible can not be understood in a “WAY” that makes a logical conclusions able to be arrived at.
“Ultimately who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally lost?”
We just touched on the answer in the last few sentences. First remember that immortality just means life without natural death. Mankind and the Angels have ask for and tried many “Ways” to find life without following Our Fathers direction of pursuit. We are close to the last possibility to be considered, a large population of Perfect humanity. This will be those of the Twinkling and their offspring born during the thousand year reign of Jesus. Those that fail this time period will lose life and await the coming destruction with those already in the grave. Everyone left at the end of the thousand years will have never lost life, either in their stay in the grave before the Twinkling or after.
(1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?”.
(Romans 2:12-29) 12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare. 17 If, now, you are a Jew in name and are resting upon law and taking pride in God, 18 and you know his will and approve of things that are excellent because you are orally instructed out of the Law; 19 and you are persuaded that you are a guide of the blind, a light for those in darkness, 20 a corrector of the unreasonable ones, a teacher of babes, and having the framework of the knowledge and of the truth in the Law— 21 do you, however, the one teaching someone else, not teach yourself? You, the one preaching “Do not steal,” do you steal? 22 You, the one saying “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You, the one expressing abhorrence of the idols, do you rob temples? 23 You, who take pride in law, do you by your transgressing of the Law dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is being blasphemed on account of YOU people among the nations”; just as it is written. 25 Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the uncircumcised [person] that is such by nature will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who with its written code and circumcision are a transgressor of law. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
Travelor – I really appreciated your detailed answer. You are clearly very knowledgeable about scriptures and very thoughtful in your consideration of these issues. Although I don’t see everything exactly the way you said it, you have my respect.
If I understand correctly, you believe that a child who dies underage is judged based on their parents standing with God. This reminds me of Jeremiah 31:29: which states that people will no longer say, “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”.
When you say that Jesus came under the “law of condemnation,” are you referring to the Adamic curse or the Mosaic Law? Do you agree that Jesus was perfect and sinless and therefore hypothetically, if he had died in an accident prior to his baptism, he would not have been condemned to eternal death?
Do you feel confident that people who have died in unbelief or lacking knowledge of Jesus Christ are eternally destroyed? Are you open to the possibility of a future judgement period and opportunity for accepting Jesus as their savior after the general resurrection of mankind on earth in the future?
You mention that living with out sin according to law would allow for life everlasting, it would. But you forget God’s will. Jesus was not sent to save himself, which would have made it an attempt to grasp life apart from God’s will, comparable again to Satan.
Yes Travelor, I agree. I was just expanding on the topic. However, on another point, I would like to ask you if you see any possibilties for unblelivers to have a future judgment opporuntiy to accetpt Jesus as indicated at this link? https://www.beyondwatchtower.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/
I wish I did, but if you do not call on jesus God must respect your choice made with free will. It is sad that something that is so fundamental in realities as right and wrong really costs so many lives amongst the confuse of those deceived. Satan chose well. Eve was deceived but probably had the stronger mind. She was as we say capable of thinking out side of the box. You would expect our Father to give more in a partner than expected. But Adam was just weak, he put his desire for Eve ahead of his connection with his Father. It seems most appropriate that those wo caused the most damage, women, would t a ke the lead in the life saving work as described in the Bible, a large Amy of women.
I take the verses below to mean that God will have a special heavenly salvation for beleivers, but that he also has a salvation plan for the rest of the world. This makes sense since 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV and 1 Tim 2:4 says, God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
God did come to the rescue of all men/humanity when he sent his on to reconcile mankind to himself. He did wand all who wanted to come to life,to do that. He never wished for this reality of the realities to be in the first place. JESUS ransom price did cover the sins of the world. Now it’s our chance to “come” , to make our minds “UP”. Remember the original home given to mankind. The one to be put in order again.
“Let your kingdom” that’s us and the desire to be one with God which needs the pouring out of the spirit on us to give increased mental capacity so we can cover distance “UP” the path. “Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
JESUS is coming down, back, to rule “over the earth with the new Jerusalem, the 144000 which he will “call” “UP”.
Getting, tent, house, mansion, temple, house of God, firmly in mind as the state of mind on the”WAY” to oneness of mind, with God is essential to an understanding of the “nature of what,is” as I say. The Bible and reality are about frame of mind. Adam,lost it, a n abroad frame of mind, Jesus was sent to regain it, and show us the WAY to all so. Living in another dimension was never part of the plan for us. Studying the word Heaven it’s use and translations miss use helps once you have the general story line in hand, a frame work of reference to what needs to be achieved in our exercise of understanding/faith.
“Let your kingdom come” refers to our making progress up the path. It means we have a desire for the spirit of understanding to be poured out on us. Adam lost approved frame of mind. We must regain it. And last tent,house,mansion,temple, city(new Jerusalem),house of God, all reference a certain frame of mind,personally, and as a group, at differing levels of awareness.
Hi Travelor – Thanks for your response. I see that you are focusing on a unified process where all are invited to progress spiritually and that you agree that salvation is available to all, but you emphasize the need for active participation in spiritual growth. I agree with you, however I beleive that for the unbelieving world of mankind, an instruction, learning and repentance opportunity exists in the future kingdom of God on earth.
Time of Teaching & Learning
Isa 29:18, 24 – Deaf will hear, blind will see. Those who erred will understand.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Isa 35:8 – “The way of holiness… shall be for (the redeemed)…fools, shall not err (therein).” ASV
ALL People will Worship & Serve God
Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
Rev 15:4 – all nations shall come and worship before You..” NKJV
Dan 7:14, 27 – “ALL peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him” His kingdom is everlasting
Isa 66:23 – all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. ASV
Ps 22:27 – “ all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.” NKJV
Ps 138:4 – “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD “ NKJV
Ps 72:8,11,17 – “all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him” NKJV
Rev 11:15 – “kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord… He shall reign forever”
Rev 21:23-24 – “the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings … bring their glory into it.” Mal 1:11 “My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to” God
(see also Ps 86:9; Ps 65:1-2; Zech 2:11; Zech 9:10)
Rev 5:13 – “And every creature … heard I saying, Blessing, and honor…to… the Lamb for ever” AKJV
My understanding now does not allow for the possibility you hold. But learning means testing daily. I’ll think through the direction you are suggesting brother.
Hi Peter, I read through your train of thought. While all sorts are to be saved, this was covered when we discussed the possible ones saved before christ or possibly those who are forgiven by living the law within themselves, a long shot I think. We looked “if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, where will the unrighteous man make a showing.” The life and death aspect of reality rules out those who do not call on christ finding life. It clearly states that Jesus is given authority over those left in the grave after the Twinkly those awaiting the coming destruction. So it is normal to wise all to be saved. By this mankind’s second chance. But if one does not cross from death to life in this system there is no chance to in the next thousand year system. That is why this work of sharing the good news is so important. The witness’s took up this all get saved now or have a chance later, with a twist. They stated or maybe still do, that if you are never approached with the truth you’ll have a chance in the thousand years. I pointed out that since it’s know that most will not except the JW witness, it means that they would be conducting a life taking work. Surely with physical proof in the thousand years and the apocalypse behind the odds would be increased that many more might stand erect. As you can guess that came across well. No the Bible is quite clean no third changes. The call from the bride those sons recieving a one part share with Jesus to rule earth as breast’s and kings will certainly play a part in teaching on the upwould path having a higher awareness shared as the bride of christ. They too again do not have a promise of living in a nother dimension. Satan is said to be the god of the air in this system. This means he controls or motivates the minds of mankind in general. Jesus becomes the god of the air taking control from Satan. The 144,000, the bide class, meet Jesus in this new frame of mind, or in the air, on his return, again as we discussed in the event, the twinkly.
Yes, I agree there are no third chances in the 1,000 years. My view is the only people under eternal judgement before the resurrection during the 1,000 years are those that were baptized into Christ and received the Holy Spirit. Yes, God brings consequences and retribution for all evil, but for the ultimate purpose of rehabilitation. After the resurrection, that will be the eternal judgement period for mankind. The Bride Class you mentioned will rule over them, subordinate to Jesus. When “the knowledge of the LORD covers the earth as the waters cover the seas” (Habakkuk 2:14) there will be no excuse for evil. Then the wicked will be eternally destroyed, which will hopefully be a very small percentage of mankind.
1 Peter 4:18—“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”—is a sobering reminder of the narrowness of the path to life, even for the faithful. This verse I suggest is emphasizing the rigorous testing and refining that the righteous must undergo during their earthly probation, during the Gospel Age.
The “righteous” refers to those who have accepted Christ and are striving to walk in obedience and consecration. Their salvation is “scarcely” achieved not because God is unwilling, but because the path requires endurance, self-denial, and faithfulness under trial. This aligns with his broader teaching that the Church is being developed as the “little flock” who will reign with Christ in the Millennial Age.
As for “the ungodly and the sinner,” this is not a declaration of eternal destruction. Instead, such individuals will face judgment in the future—specifically during the Millennial Age—when they would have a full, fair opportunity to learn righteousness under Christ’s Kingdom. In that sense, 1 Peter 4:18 serves as both a warning to the consecrated and a foreshadowing of future accountability for the rest of humanity.
These are my suggestions. Thanks for your insights.
Hi Petter, sorry I’ve been very busy but thought I’d share my first general thought about those how do not call on Jesus getting another chance under Christ’s new system.
It seems illogical on its face that Jesus or those following him while he lived and in the immediate years after, would take a stand, often leading to torture and death if they thought they could just wait and take advantage of the next system where ther would be no pain or out cry. I mean sawn asunder or wait.
I will try to soon go through the scriptures you’ve listed showing how each fits into a logical framework. I enjoy your depth of thought though brother.
I am glad that in your busy schedule you are still interested in continuing the conversation as you are able.
I would like to respond to the excellent question you raised about why wouldn’t Jesus followers escape suffering and just wait for the kingdom.
Those who followed Jesus during his earthly ministry and shortly thereafter were responding to a heavenly invitation—not merely waiting for earthly relief. He taught that:
– The Gospel Age was a special time when God was selecting a “little flock” (Luke 12:32) to be joint-heirs with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom.
– This calling required faithfulness unto death (Revelation 2:10), and suffering was a refining process to prepare the saints for glory (Romans 8:17–18) and responsibilities as earth’s future judges, priests and kings under Jesus, their head judge, priest and king.
– The future earthly Kingdom would be for the general blessing of mankind, but the Church’s role was to be part of the ruling class with Christ—hence the urgency and sacrifice.
Here are some key texts to support this view:
| Romans 8:17–18 | Suffering with Christ – Suffering is a prerequisite for glorification
| Revelation 2:10 | Faithfulness unto death – The crown of life is given to those who endure
| 2 Timothy 2:12 | Reigning with Christ – Endurance leads to co-rulership
| Luke 12:32 | The “little flock” – A select group called during the Gospel Age
| Acts 14:22 | Tribulation before the Kingdom – Entry into the Kingdom requires hardship
| Philippians 3:14 | High calling – A prize that demands pressing forward despite trials
Waiting passively for the Kingdom would mean missing the opportunity to be part of the first resurrection (Revelation 20:6), which is the reward for those who were faithful during the Gospel Age.
The idea of “just waiting” would miss the entire purpose of the Christian calling:
– The Church is being tested now, while the world will be blessed later.
– Those who suffer now are being prepared to bless others in the future (Galatians 3:29).
– The Kingdom is not merely a refuge, but a government of co-rulers, and that role requires that they are sanctified (become holy, pure, righteous)) through trial.
Trying to get in touch with where we left off.
The Bible states “the thinking man is hated”. All are anointed by the information of Jesus held. Jesus was anointed as his brothers it just says with more. The same case will be when the 144,000 are chosen.
The UPward call, or as some say the heavenly calling, is the call everyone hears to pursue the UPward path of reason laid out by Jesus as a beginning. All will suffer, all most remain faithful to death. The one exception is those alive when the end comes.
Jesus secured the promise of a resurrection that results in a return to existence. Jesus was the first one, the first fruit of this first resurrection returning those in the grave at the Twinkling back to existence. The second resurrection result of course are those who without ever returning to existence. Having not called on christ to do so, are cast into the lake of fire. The 144,000 are the least among humanity, fitting kings and priests. The stiff necked nation of Israel never got that God was making himself strong with that which is weak. Obviously they were some of the weakest on earth. Yes we are thankful for the real, the true Jews who served in humility and humbled themselves,so that the promises could be carried forward. Looking at the choosing, it’s interesting to note that the new nation created by Jesus, or through Jesus in the new order will still have tribes. We know that really only a relatively small number left the nation of Israel, and that there are those grafted in to this number. But “tribe” must have to do with the orderly running this new nation.
The new order will be the last possibility to be explored, a large number of people, enlightened during the Twinkling so they rise, are lifted UP to a perfect frame of mind, one with Jesus and God. There really is no possibility that those who did not call on Jesus and through him the promises, having never experienced the adoption, the “recieving of the “token of adoptive spirit”, and the full adoption through the event of the Twinkling, to be present in an area with out pain and suffering. The pat follows logic. Investigating the term “heaven” and it’s different means will help to some degree. Remembering that the authors of the Bible and the translators did not have a clear understanding of what they were seeing or what they were receiving helps us to see the need to keep our “eyes” fixed on the “unseen thing” the reality behind the words. Only with a fixed veiw, framework of this reality, God’s reality can we come to understand the importance of God’s statement “this Way leads to life.
Hi Traveler – I think you’re describing the transformative power of Jesus’ teachings and sacrifice, the hope of resurrection, and the establishment of a divine new order led by the humble and faithful, particularly the 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8). You emphasize reason, faithfulness, and spiritual adoption (Romans 8:15) as essential for life in God’s kingdom, while warning that those who reject Christ face destruction in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). The ‘Twinkling’ (1 Corinthians 15:52) is important in your explanation of the resurrection, where the faithful are transformed.
You have not addressed scriptures I cited as evidence that unbelievers will awaken in a future resurrection and have an opportunity to repent and accept Jesus. Would you agree or do your see their fate as sealed?
For me the best way for me to understand an answer is to respond “yes” or “no” then to followup with an explanation, otherwise sometimes it is difficult to be sure I understood the answer from the explanation. Thanks.
“1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth”
When God sent his son to reconcile humanity, God became the Savior of all. He is the Savior in that he made approach to God possible for any who would come to him. So in this sense God was a savior to those who pursued to gain life. Those who crossed from death to life are reminded that all can come. Remember the nation of Israel were and are a stiff necked people, thinking that they alone were Gods only people.
“1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV”
“Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]”
Actually the call is towards those that “desire”, those that pursue receive the spirit and the coming help of the bride. The prayer goes, “let your kingdom come” those who pursue, are under Gods influence through Jesus.. you know the rest.
“Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV”
The creation, the angels , await the new creations being delivered in the event of the Twinkling when that which is corruptible receives the full compliment of their inheritance and becomes incorruptible, a “new creation”.
“1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV”
The idea was brought up once that maybe we should go on sinning to make God’s forgiveness greater. Of course this was illogical. But 1 peter express’s the logical view that the persecution of those who maintain a firm stand will on inspection glorify God.
(1 Peter 1:3-4) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU. . .
We see that the promise to inherit the earth was now through the resurrection of Jesus reserved in heaven by Jesus taking up his kingship. Mankind outside of Jesus has never been called/invited to come to heaven.
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
(2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) 6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among YOU.
Clearly points out no second chance in a new order for those who do not call on Gods name through Christ.
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
We’ve talked already about the fact that Jesus reconciled us to God with his sacrifice, but we must pursue for the forgiveness of our own sins, as each of us sin’s in his own turn. So the word of the reconciliation, or words explaining the nature of the opportunity needed to be explained.
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
We know that we are the building blocks of a new house of God. Jesus is the corner stone. We just pointed out the word of the reconciliation was to go out.
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
(Romans 11:25-32) . . .For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. 30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.
We know that the “Nation of Israel” were disobedient to such an extent that the kingdom of God was taken from them. We also know that on the rejection of Jesus as king by the Nation, Jesus set about preaching the good news to the “son’s of Israel” Israel having no reference to the “Nation of” but to the offspring of Abraham by frame of mind, now the son’s of Israel by frame of mind. With a long standing pride in their relationship with God, some took more time to realize what was happening in their age, before following Jesus.
In all of these scriptures I see no reference to two “hopes” or two paths to salvation. One still must accept the opportunity of the reconciliation that paid humanity’s debt for Adams sin. Then we must become a footstep, or logical pursuer of the same direction that Jesus did to secure our personal hope of a resurrection result, of return to existence on earth. No where in the Bible is there any promise, of provision, for a new home in Heaven.
Thank you, Traveler, for your thoughtful reflections. I appreciate your emphasis on the necessity of faith and obedience in Christ for salvation. However, I still hold that the Scriptures point to a future resurrection of all—both just and unjust (Acts 24:15)—and that God’s redemptive plan includes an opportunity for unbelievers to come to know Christ in the age to come.
For example, Revelation 22:17 offers a universal invitation: “Let the one who is thirsty come,” which I understand as extending even to those who have not yet believed. Similarly, 1 John 2:2 speaks of Christ as the atoning sacrifice “not only for our sins but also for the sins of the whole world.” These and other passages suggest to me that the door of mercy remains open beyond this present life for those who never truly knew Him.
Would you say that all who died in ignorance of Christ are eternally lost? Or might they, too, be among those who “hear His voice” and “come out” in the resurrection (John 5:28-29)?
I’d be grateful for a simple “yes” or “no” to that question, followed by your thoughts, if you’re willing.
Hi Peter. I’m having trouble.navigating the site . I see the latest comment but when I tape on your answer it takes me to the first. Comment O made. Dah help please, foing this on my phone for now
Travelor – Yes, it is difficult to navigate. In the right panel, you can try clicking on “See More Latest Comments” in red font, just below “Latest Comments” and above “Recent Posts.”
Hi Peter, once we cross from death to life it states that we are not to be judged and those who don’t cross are already judged. True there will be no test in the thousand years because God does not have a need to, no sin. Yes as Adam we could chose a direction against God but it would result inimmediate death. Every tear is wiped because for the thousand years stain will not be allowed to affect humanities mind.
Hi Traveler – Thanks for some deep thoughts. I enjoyed looking up some of the scriptures I think you had in mind:
John 5:24 “- “Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life”.
John 3:18 – “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already…”
Revelation 20:4–6, mentions that the saints reign with Christ for a thousand years during a time of peace and righteousness, with Satan bound and unable to deceive the nations
Revelation 21:4 – “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain…”
Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8:10 state that God will write His law on their minds and hearts
I enjoy your manner of reply,very patient and loving. I beleive that the grasp of the level of suffering in this system should help us realize that allowing it to happen again in another system would be cruel, illogical. I visited a hospital wing for kids with cancer recently. Just walking down the long hall leading to it as parents with their children in wheelchairs holding stuffed animals was to much. What a kingdom of Christ’s new order would be like if those parents had to watch their kids fail and die in the next life would be like, well, just a small thought. The question is well answered in this system.
Good point. Let me suggest the possibility that in the future paradise kingdom on earth, which we can call “another system,” the outcome would be much more favorable for resurrected humanity, because the Truths of God’s righeous kingdome will be so clear, that even a fool would understand.
Isaiah 35:8: (ESV) And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray.
The Truth on this Way of Holiness will be so clear that even fools shall not go astray.
Once the blindness is removed after Satan is bound (restrained) during the 1,000 years (see Revelation 20:2), everyone will know God and the gospel message. At that time and in that kingdom on earth, the Scriptures say:
John 1:9: (NASB) This was the true Light (Jesus) that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. The fulfilment of this scripture must be in the future because every person has not yet been enlightened.
Once the veil of blindness, ignorance, superstition and deception is removed, mankind will be ready and anxious to learn all about God’s righteous principles in His future kingdom on earth.
Isaiah 29:18,24: In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who complained will learn doctrine.
Isaiah 26:9: …For when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 11:9-10: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse (Jesus), who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek him, and his resting place shall be glorious.
Micah 4:1-2: Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Learning will come from the house of the God of Jacob (Israel). Out of Zion…from Jerusalem will the Lord speak and teach.
Jeremiah 31:33-34: (KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 8:11: None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, Know the LORD, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
The idea that even a fool could follow addresses the differing levels of intelligence in the new “system”. No one is taught by his brother shows the result of the “Twinkling” and it’s clearing of the eyes of the great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses of what? Well the answered conclusion of the old system of Satan. Jesus and the 144,000 “bought from the earth” a reference to our group of beings made of earth, humanity as a whole, will teach us as a newly formed awareness above us, new Jerusalem. Thinking that those who stood against or those who just decided to not call on the name of God and his son, is a statement of a second asking of the outcome of this old system. There is a natural condition to “our savior” as a statement that leaves no room for those causing the need to be saved, to also be saved by second chance or other means. Lose of life was set clearly out in the first place, in the day that you eat, you will die. If you beleive in him you will be preserved alive, live. Those that make it into the new system need never die because they no longer “sin”. This is not a second try kingdom for those left outside of God’s Way. Love means logic in God’s Way leading to life must stand alone. Against other options.
Hi Traveler. There is always a LOT to unpack in your responses. You are always pulling from various Bible verses and concepts to weave a story and an answer. It is fun to try to look up and match the verses you are alluding to. Let me focus on for me what is the meat of your answer. You are making the point that there are NO second chances. God’s love is expressed through a logical, consistent system of justice and salvation. Choosing God’s way (through faith in Christ) is the only path to life, with no alternative routes.
Yes, I agree, except with your limitation that mankinds only opportunity for eternal life is to accept Jesus NOW as their Savior in this life before the resurrection. Or at least you are saying that if they did not take advantage of a clear opportunity in this life, they are FINISHED. It is over for them. No future opportunity. This presumes that God is judging mankind now. The denominational Christian world agrees with you on this, even though at the same time they talk about FUTURE judgement.
Revelation 20 (NASV95)
11 ¶ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Why can this judgment not be based on thier progress and behavior during the 1,000 years?
I would like to repost what I provided on June 12 which affirms that unbeleivers will have a future opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior.
I take the verses below to mean that God will have a special heavenly salvation for beleivers, but that he also has a salvation plan for the rest of the world. This makes sense since 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV and 1 Tim 2:4 says, God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
Hi Travelor. None of your posts are in the spam folder. I am sorry I missed recent posts. The last post I have from you starts “Hi Petter, sorry I’ve been very busy…”
I am so glad I more or less stumbled on this site. It is interesting to note that there are still those out there who do not realize that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a splinter group from the IBSA. This mostly comes from people reading the JW literature and seeing this as the actual history of JW. Websites like this should set the record straight. If they care to take a look and learn.
The us dollar or Federal reserve note its value will be wiped out mostly this will cause a lot of people to go homeless and worse. the only way people in this world will make is the love of God. and the love of People. I am a anointed Jehovah’s witness please take this seriously. store up small amounts of supplies. over the next six months. Bible studies will be done in the home for most people during the time of our next world wide sickness. depend on Christ and Jehovah in prayer to guide you all to make good decisions. if you have give and it will be given you. get out of false religion thinking. but truth in your mind. May the love of our lord Jesus Christ and Jehovah be with you all please pray for healing of human kind and our earth.
I am nearing 60 and was born, raised, and spent most of my life as a jW. Only in the last few years have my eyes been opened. I have written several articles and was wondering if you were interested. They are found here: http://da.getmyip.com/PDF/Ramblings
Thanks. The kingdom of God is what we look forward to: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Rev 21:4 AV
Kingdom of God was present when Jesus was alive. He gave the upward calls message, present yourself, with your power of reason. He laid out the path of reason, in steps of reason. This is why those of the right frame of mind, the true Jew became footstep followers and in doing so we’re removed from the nation of Israel. Yes no Jews left in the Nation. Once you realize that in reality and the Bible frame of mind is everything, you can approach the “Great cloud of witnesses and understand the “Twinkling “.
Hi Peter. The Twinkling is an event in our future. Approach grasping it this Way. Lost approved frame of mind in the garden and the inheritance from the Father, God,of a complete quantity of active force, holy spirit. It’s this inheritance that gave mental capacity to acquire and exercise oneness of mind with our Father.
So we now need to make our minds over, UP. How can we do this? Well Jesus “reconciled ” humanity in relation to God by delivering the ransom for our Father, God. This means we can again approach God and ask to be forgiven our own personal sin so we can enter a adoption as children of our Father. So again we can make our minds over, UP, using the now given “token” of inherited active force/spirit, given on adoption. Jesus showed us a “WAY” to use this force on what was described as the UPward path,or to heed the UPward call.
This UPward path is taken by following the steps of reason Jesus revealed. This process of acquiring a oneness of mind with Jesus and our Father through progress UP the path is headed towards the full adoption at the event called tht “Twinkling”.
We see now in a “hazy outline” so we are called the ” great cloud of witnesses “. At the Twinkling, we receive our full inheritance of active force with its mind expanding capacity. This change in our nature allows us to fully comprehend/see Jesus and be seen by Jesus. Jesus “arrives in the “clouds” or minds of the great cloud of witnesses, the Twinkling event. We can assume it’s described this way because of the comparison between the event and the coming awarenesses from our Father.
The description you provided appears to reference several biblical concepts and scriptures, particularly from the New Testament, while incorporating some interpretive or theological language that may not directly quote specific verses but alludes to them. Below, I’ll identify the key scriptural connections based on the themes and phrases in your description, focusing on the Bible (using a standard translation like the New International Version or King James Version for reference).
Key Themes and Corresponding Scriptures:
The Twinkling Event:
The phrase “Twinkling” likely refers to the event described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (NIV)
This passage speaks of a future transformation of believers, often associated with the resurrection or rapture, where mortal bodies are changed into imperishable ones. Your description of the “Twinkling” as a future event involving a change in nature and receiving a “full inheritance” aligns closely with this scripture.
Lost Frame of Mind in the Garden:
The reference to losing an “approved frame of mind in the garden” points to the Fall of Man in Genesis 3, where Adam and Eve’s disobedience resulted in separation from God and the loss of their original state of harmony and communion with Him. This is implied rather than directly quoted, but the concept of losing an “inheritance” of oneness with God fits this narrative.
Inheritance of Active Force/Holy Spirit:
The idea of an “inheritance” of the Holy Spirit connects to several New Testament passages:
Ephesians 1:13-14:
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession…” (NIV)
This speaks of the Holy Spirit as a “deposit” or “token” (as you mentioned) of the future full inheritance, which aligns with your description of receiving an active force upon adoption.
Romans 8:15-17 also ties in:
“The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship… and co-heirs with Christ…” (NIV)
This supports the idea of adoption as children of God and receiving an inheritance.
Jesus’ Reconciliation and Ransom:
The description of Jesus “reconciling” humanity through a “ransom” directly refers to scriptures like:
1 Timothy 2:5-6:
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people…” (NIV)
Colossians 1:19-20:
“For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things… by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” (NIV)
These passages explain how Jesus’ sacrifice restores the relationship between humanity and God, enabling believers to approach God for forgiveness and adoption.
Making Our Minds Over, UP:
The concept of transforming or renewing the mind is found in Romans 12:2:
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (NIV)
Your description of “making our minds over, UP” aligns with this call to spiritual transformation and aligns with achieving oneness with God’s will.
The Upward Path/Call:
The “UPward path” or “UPward call” directly echoes Philippians 3:13-14:
“…Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” (NIV)
The “heavenward” or “upward call” (as translated in some versions) matches your description of a path of spiritual progress toward oneness with God and Jesus.
Great Cloud of Witnesses:
The phrase “great cloud of witnesses” is a direct reference to Hebrews 12:1:
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us…” (NIV)
Your description ties this to believers seeing “in a hazy outline” and progressing toward the Twinkling, suggesting a connection between the witnesses (faithful believers) and the future transformation.
Seeing Jesus in the Clouds:
The imagery of Jesus “arriving in the clouds” connects to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven… and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air…” (NIV)
Additionally, Revelation 1:7 states:
“Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him…” (NIV)
Your description of Jesus arriving in the “clouds” or minds of the witnesses may be an interpretive blend of these verses with the idea of spiritual enlightenment or transformation at the Twinkling.
Seeing in a Hazy Outline:
The phrase “we see now in a hazy outline” likely alludes to 1 Corinthians 13:12:
“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (NIV)
This verse speaks of incomplete understanding now, contrasted with full comprehension in the future, which fits your description of the Twinkling as a moment of receiving full mental capacity and seeing Jesus clearly.
Analysis and Summary:
Well said. The truth is hidden because it’s in the langauge, the conceptual images that inspired the words. Remember that the expressions recorded were a conversation for those who are given eyes to see and ears to hear by God through Jesus revealed steps of logic. The author often not actually understanding what he was recording because it’s meaning was meant for ears generations later.
Keeping your eye on the unseen things is key. Humanity was meant to have continued existence by pursue a certain direction, as God also does. While there is much to that statement it connects simply further up the path. Adam and Eve lost their relationship with their Father. God knew of this possibility when he shared information that allowed for free will. To re-enter the family relationship has always been the goal set for Adam’s and Eves children, humanity.
It is believed by meany that Jesus was sent to save the entire inhabited earth. What isn’t understood is he was, just not as they’ve envisioned.The Bible says Satan roamed about in earth. I always thought that was a strange way to put it. Then I realized we in slaves form are given a permanent house on crossing from death to life legally in our belief. We are dust/earth but are existing in our body’s as in a tent. It becomes a home with the promise of “the first resurrection “. Then Jesus returns to his Father and asks for the spirit of understanding/helper to be poured out to fill us with new awarenesses making our house a mansion. Each person in crossing from death to life receives a token of adoptive spirit which mean that the are no longer dead but now inhabit the earth, their body. the inheritance promised to Abraham’s offspring to inherit the earth. We are the offspring of Abraham mentally. So the entire inhabited earth.
The process of the return to, or I would say of the garden to its original state is clear in that we are God’s field under cultivation as adopted children.
The truth is simple and makes your paths straight, one step at a time.
Hi Travel – Your comments contain several concepts and phrases that appear to allude to various Bible verses, particularly from the New Testament, with some references to Old Testament themes. As it may be an additonal blessing to our readers, below, I’ll identify the likely Bible verses or passages being alluded to, based on your language and ideas presented, while keeping the response concise and focused.
“Eyes to see and ears to hear”
This phrase directly echoes Jesus’ teachings about spiritual perception, often used in the context of parables.
Possible Verses:
Matthew 13:16 – “But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.”
Mark 4:9 – “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
Deuteronomy 29:4 (Old Testament precursor) – “But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.”
The comment suggests that divine revelation through Jesus enables understanding of hidden truths, aligning with these verses.
“Keeping your eye on the unseen things”
This likely refers to focusing on spiritual or eternal realities rather than temporary, material ones.
Possible Verse:
2 Corinthians 4:18 – “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.”
The emphasis on pursuing an eternal direction connects to this idea of prioritizing spiritual truths.
“Adam and Eve lost their relationship with their Father”
This alludes to the Fall in Genesis, where disobedience severed humanity’s direct communion with God.
Possible Verses:
Genesis 3:8-24 – Describes Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden, symbolizing the loss of their relationship with God.
Romans 5:12 – “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.”
The comment frames humanity’s goal as restoring this relationship, a common biblical theme.
“Jesus was sent to save the entire inhabited earth”
This points to Jesus’ redemptive mission, though the comment reinterprets it in a spiritual or metaphorical sense.
Possible Verses:
John 3:17 – “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”
1 John 4:14 – “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.”
The phrase “inhabited earth” may also connect to Revelation 12:9 (see below for Satan reference), where the earth is a domain of spiritual conflict.
“Satan roamed about in earth”
This directly references Satan’s activity on earth, often depicted as a tempter or adversary.
Possible Verse:
Job 1:7 – “The Lord said to Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the Lord, ‘From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.’”
1 Peter 5:8 – “Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”
The comment’s phrasing suggests a metaphorical view of humanity’s earthly existence as influenced by spiritual forces.
“From death to life”
This phrase reflects the transition from spiritual death to eternal life through faith in Jesus.
Possible Verses:
John 5:24 – “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
Ephesians 2:1-5 – “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins… But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ.”
The comment ties this to belief and adoption into God’s family.
“Our body’s as in a tent”
The imagery of the body as a temporary dwelling is a common biblical metaphor.
Possible Verse:
2 Corinthians 5:1 – “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.”
“Spirit of understanding/helper”
This likely refers to the Holy Spirit, described as a helper or advocate.
Possible Verses:
John 14:26 – “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
John 16:13 – “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”
The “mansion” imagery may also loosely connect to John 14:2 (“My Father’s house has many rooms”), though the comment uses it metaphorically for spiritual growth.
“Inheritance promised to Abraham’s offspring”
This alludes to the covenant with Abraham, extended to believers as his spiritual heirs.
Possible Verses:
Galatians 3:29 – “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Romans 4:13 – “It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.”
“God’s field under cultivation”
This imagery portrays believers as a field being cultivated by God, a biblical metaphor for spiritual growth.
Possible Verse:
1 Corinthians 3:9 – “For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.”
The restoration of the “garden” (Eden) aligns with themes of renewal, as in Revelation 21:1-5 (new heaven and new earth).
“The first resurrection”
This directly references the resurrection of believers, a key eschatological concept.
Possible Verse:
Revelation 20:5-6 – “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.”
“Makes your paths straight”
This echoes wisdom literature and teachings about divine guidance.
Possible Verse:
Proverbs 3:6 – “In all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.”
Matthew 3:3 (quoting Isaiah 40:3) – “A voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”
The comment uses this to emphasize simplicity and clarity in following God’s truth.
Summary
Your comments weave together a tapestry of biblical themes, including spiritual perception (Matthew 13:16), eternal focus (2 Corinthians 4:18), the Fall (Genesis 3), redemption through Jesus (John 3:17), the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), Abraham’s inheritance (Galatians 3:29), and eschatological hope (Revelation 20:5-6). You interpret these in a metaphorical, spiritualized way, emphasizing adoption into God’s family and the transformation of believers as the “inhabited earth.”
I have to ask, are you using AI to respond? While tone relates to sound or speech, it is a common mistake to beleive language does also. Language relates to the conceptual images behind the words. The Bible states you search the scriptures believing eternal life can be found among them. The problem is it won’t be found unless you “peer” into them. Frame of mind is and was what is important. It must be that the mind using the token gets a “sense” of direction. Meditating on that sensed direction, or a general holding of the information Jesus revealed relating to this direction, will start to add “UP” so at a certain point one can ponder the whole to achieve insight and a conclusion or stand. This process is taking the truth as your own. They Bible points out they go on learning and learning never able to come to an accurate conclusion. My experience is that “they” have no overview, no frame work that allows the logical ordering of the information received in the Bible. While the consideration of adoption goes a long way in explaining this overview it does not explain the deeper things such as why God pursues, or what information shared by God allowed for free will, the asking of a question or how a question exists in the “First” place.
While you evidently connect statements like God’s field under cultivation as a metaphor, in reality we being made of dust are literally being cultivated through mental manipulation. Much as Adam would have manipulated the growth of say the black mulberry tree.
I think the one thing bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses can agree on is that the 144000 is a government. its the interpretation of wicked slave is what leaders of the watchtower of today they disagree on. so bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses have separated them selves from each other on.
Yes, in Rev 7 we have 144,000 sealed out of the twelve tribes of (spiritual) Israel who are with the lamb on Mount Zion (compare Heb 12:22). In Rev 14, the 144,000 are described as redeemed, virgins, first fruits and are before the throne of God. These virgins become the bride of Christ (Rev 21:2), the heavenly government on the future Paradise Earth. Rutherford created a new organization called the Jehovah’s Witnesses and changed the doctrines. The Bible Students separated and continued with the original belief as independent congregations with no central control from a governing body and were then called evil slaves by the new organization. Do you have any further thoughts to share or questions? Feel fee to share.
Peter K. (admin) { Thank you, Traveler, for your thoughtful reflections. I appreciate your emphasis on the necessity of faith and obedience in Christ for salvation. However, I still... }
traveler { “1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole... }
Peter K. (admin) { Hi Traveler – I think you’re describing the transformative power of Jesus’ teachings and sacrifice, the hope of resurrection, and the establishment of a divine... }
Traveler { Trying to get in touch with where we left off. The Bible states "the thinking man is hated". All are anointed by the information of... }
Peter K. (admin) { Hi Travelor. None of your posts are in the spam folder. I am sorry I missed recent posts. The last post I have from you... }
Traveler { Seems my last two posts never showed up. I'll keep trying. }
I’m new here so this should be under some other comments I beleive. But reading a little on this site it seem ther is a common misconception relating to resurrection. Resurrection is a process not a result. To stand before God and receive your reward.some receive a return to existencefrom the grave some remain in the grave already judged because the did not call on the name of christ. Jesus was given a kingship over the living and the dead, in that he was head is those given life and the keeper of those left in the grave awaiting the coming destruction. It is sad that only a few find the narrow path. It is however a life saying work to spread the word.
Once Gods right to decide right and wrong, his soverinty was called into question, no one could be destroyed until the question is answered. Being loving we wish all to be saved, but those who chose other paths have God’s word it can be played out once and they will recieve the reward earned.. GOD IS BOND BY HIS WORD AMONG OTHER THINGS It also helps to keep track of the fact that there is only one Savior God, and one savior lower case from among us Jesus. One King,over all, one king. Lower case Jesus over us now.
There is a simple order to the reality that is.
Hi Traveler. Your comments about the resurrection process made me think of some questions that might make for an interesting discussion. You are welcome to respond if you are so inclined.
Ultimately who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally lost?
Will a child that dies before the age of accountability have a resurrection opportunity?
The people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Noah. Will they have a resurrection opportunity?
Old civilizations in South America never had access to the Bible that we know of. Would good people who lived according to their God provided conscience have any future hope of a resurrection process?
How can anyone before Christ be saved, not having accepted Jesus as their personal savior?
I think it would be interesting to consider scriptures relating to these questions if you would like. Or perhaps you want to consider another topic.
“Will a child that dies before the age of accountability have a resurrection opportunity?”
These subjects are difficult although clear, But hard to relate to a mixed audience, not wanting to weaken those with a weaker understanding. The law given by God is quite clear on the accountability of a child who is under age, it depends on the parents/head of the household. Jesus as an example although a Son of God, was adopted by Joseph, and so came to be under the law of condemnation. The law of condemnation was for all of humanity a judgment, if you did not live free of sin that is. Had Jesus not presented himself to be baptized, do Gods will, while in slaves form, he would have died under this law. So that’s the simple answer.
In all this, people forget that humanity left Gods path when our parents did. We all are considered dead as long as we are off spring of Adam. Now here again we see the importance of frame of mind. The answering of the question of God’s right to decide right and wrong has as many facets as Humanity and the Angels attempts to find life apart from God and his suggested direction. One of these attempts was ask for when man ask for perfect law, which they were warned about, in that it would condemn them, as it did. We ask for Kings, which never worked out very well. Many direction have been tried, war for example and so on.
(1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?”.
In reality we have “self evident truth” placed in front of us, as the creation. In that creation relating to humanity there is a law or awarness written into us you could say, by our nature. We have a sense of right and wrong. It’s on this base that mankind before Jesus and after, was judged or forgiven. Remember we are the offspring of Abraham who did not know Jesus or was ever under the law given to Israel.
14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.
“people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Noah. Will they have a resurrection opportunity?”
All will receive a resurrection, to life/return to existence, or to remain in the grave awaiting the coming destruction. Outside of Jesus no man is fit for life, but must be forgiven. We are not Judges. Resurrection is a process carried out by God through Jesus, not the result of life or death/destruction.
There is one more interesting aspect of this “question of Sovereignty” until it is answered no being can be destroyed. God is bond by his word and the law he lives by to allow the question to reach it’s conclusion. This really shows why an “Over-view” is necessary. With out this frame work, questions that are answered simply in the Bible can not be understood in a “WAY” that makes a logical conclusions able to be arrived at.
“Ultimately who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally lost?”
We just touched on the answer in the last few sentences. First remember that immortality just means life without natural death. Mankind and the Angels have ask for and tried many “Ways” to find life without following Our Fathers direction of pursuit. We are close to the last possibility to be considered, a large population of Perfect humanity. This will be those of the Twinkling and their offspring born during the thousand year reign of Jesus. Those that fail this time period will lose life and await the coming destruction with those already in the grave. Everyone left at the end of the thousand years will have never lost life, either in their stay in the grave before the Twinkling or after.
(1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?”.
(Romans 2:12-29) 12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare. 17 If, now, you are a Jew in name and are resting upon law and taking pride in God, 18 and you know his will and approve of things that are excellent because you are orally instructed out of the Law; 19 and you are persuaded that you are a guide of the blind, a light for those in darkness, 20 a corrector of the unreasonable ones, a teacher of babes, and having the framework of the knowledge and of the truth in the Law— 21 do you, however, the one teaching someone else, not teach yourself? You, the one preaching “Do not steal,” do you steal? 22 You, the one saying “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You, the one expressing abhorrence of the idols, do you rob temples? 23 You, who take pride in law, do you by your transgressing of the Law dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is being blasphemed on account of YOU people among the nations”; just as it is written. 25 Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the uncircumcised [person] that is such by nature will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who with its written code and circumcision are a transgressor of law. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
Travelor – I really appreciated your detailed answer. You are clearly very knowledgeable about scriptures and very thoughtful in your consideration of these issues. Although I don’t see everything exactly the way you said it, you have my respect.
If I understand correctly, you believe that a child who dies underage is judged based on their parents standing with God. This reminds me of Jeremiah 31:29: which states that people will no longer say, “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”.
When you say that Jesus came under the “law of condemnation,” are you referring to the Adamic curse or the Mosaic Law? Do you agree that Jesus was perfect and sinless and therefore hypothetically, if he had died in an accident prior to his baptism, he would not have been condemned to eternal death?
Do you feel confident that people who have died in unbelief or lacking knowledge of Jesus Christ are eternally destroyed? Are you open to the possibility of a future judgement period and opportunity for accepting Jesus as their savior after the general resurrection of mankind on earth in the future?
You mention that living with out sin according to law would allow for life everlasting, it would. But you forget God’s will. Jesus was not sent to save himself, which would have made it an attempt to grasp life apart from God’s will, comparable again to Satan.
Yes Travelor, I agree. I was just expanding on the topic. However, on another point, I would like to ask you if you see any possibilties for unblelivers to have a future judgment opporuntiy to accetpt Jesus as indicated at this link? https://www.beyondwatchtower.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/
I wish I did, but if you do not call on jesus God must respect your choice made with free will. It is sad that something that is so fundamental in realities as right and wrong really costs so many lives amongst the confuse of those deceived. Satan chose well. Eve was deceived but probably had the stronger mind. She was as we say capable of thinking out side of the box. You would expect our Father to give more in a partner than expected. But Adam was just weak, he put his desire for Eve ahead of his connection with his Father. It seems most appropriate that those wo caused the most damage, women, would t a ke the lead in the life saving work as described in the Bible, a large Amy of women.
Travelor,
I take the verses below to mean that God will have a special heavenly salvation for beleivers, but that he also has a salvation plan for the rest of the world. This makes sense since 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV and 1 Tim 2:4 says, God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
God did come to the rescue of all men/humanity when he sent his on to reconcile mankind to himself. He did wand all who wanted to come to life,to do that. He never wished for this reality of the realities to be in the first place. JESUS ransom price did cover the sins of the world. Now it’s our chance to “come” , to make our minds “UP”. Remember the original home given to mankind. The one to be put in order again.
“Let your kingdom” that’s us and the desire to be one with God which needs the pouring out of the spirit on us to give increased mental capacity so we can cover distance “UP” the path. “Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
JESUS is coming down, back, to rule “over the earth with the new Jerusalem, the 144000 which he will “call” “UP”.
Getting, tent, house, mansion, temple, house of God, firmly in mind as the state of mind on the”WAY” to oneness of mind, with God is essential to an understanding of the “nature of what,is” as I say. The Bible and reality are about frame of mind. Adam,lost it, a n abroad frame of mind, Jesus was sent to regain it, and show us the WAY to all so. Living in another dimension was never part of the plan for us. Studying the word Heaven it’s use and translations miss use helps once you have the general story line in hand, a frame work of reference to what needs to be achieved in our exercise of understanding/faith.
“Let your kingdom come” refers to our making progress up the path. It means we have a desire for the spirit of understanding to be poured out on us. Adam lost approved frame of mind. We must regain it. And last tent,house,mansion,temple, city(new Jerusalem),house of God, all reference a certain frame of mind,personally, and as a group, at differing levels of awareness.
Hi Travelor – Thanks for your response. I see that you are focusing on a unified process where all are invited to progress spiritually and that you agree that salvation is available to all, but you emphasize the need for active participation in spiritual growth. I agree with you, however I beleive that for the unbelieving world of mankind, an instruction, learning and repentance opportunity exists in the future kingdom of God on earth.
Time of Teaching & Learning
Isa 29:18, 24 – Deaf will hear, blind will see. Those who erred will understand.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Isa 35:8 – “The way of holiness… shall be for (the redeemed)…fools, shall not err (therein).” ASV
ALL People will Worship & Serve God
Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
Rev 15:4 – all nations shall come and worship before You..” NKJV
Dan 7:14, 27 – “ALL peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him” His kingdom is everlasting
Isa 66:23 – all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. ASV
Ps 22:27 – “ all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.” NKJV
Ps 138:4 – “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD “ NKJV
Ps 72:8,11,17 – “all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him” NKJV
Rev 11:15 – “kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord… He shall reign forever”
Rev 21:23-24 – “the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings … bring their glory into it.” Mal 1:11 “My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to” God
(see also Ps 86:9; Ps 65:1-2; Zech 2:11; Zech 9:10)
Rev 5:13 – “And every creature … heard I saying, Blessing, and honor…to… the Lamb for ever” AKJV
My understanding now does not allow for the possibility you hold. But learning means testing daily. I’ll think through the direction you are suggesting brother.
No Worries Traveler. We enjoy Christian liberty and respect for each other.
Hi Peter, I read through your train of thought. While all sorts are to be saved, this was covered when we discussed the possible ones saved before christ or possibly those who are forgiven by living the law within themselves, a long shot I think. We looked “if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, where will the unrighteous man make a showing.” The life and death aspect of reality rules out those who do not call on christ finding life. It clearly states that Jesus is given authority over those left in the grave after the Twinkly those awaiting the coming destruction. So it is normal to wise all to be saved. By this mankind’s second chance. But if one does not cross from death to life in this system there is no chance to in the next thousand year system. That is why this work of sharing the good news is so important. The witness’s took up this all get saved now or have a chance later, with a twist. They stated or maybe still do, that if you are never approached with the truth you’ll have a chance in the thousand years. I pointed out that since it’s know that most will not except the JW witness, it means that they would be conducting a life taking work. Surely with physical proof in the thousand years and the apocalypse behind the odds would be increased that many more might stand erect. As you can guess that came across well. No the Bible is quite clean no third changes. The call from the bride those sons recieving a one part share with Jesus to rule earth as breast’s and kings will certainly play a part in teaching on the upwould path having a higher awareness shared as the bride of christ. They too again do not have a promise of living in a nother dimension. Satan is said to be the god of the air in this system. This means he controls or motivates the minds of mankind in general. Jesus becomes the god of the air taking control from Satan. The 144,000, the bide class, meet Jesus in this new frame of mind, or in the air, on his return, again as we discussed in the event, the twinkly.
Thanks Traveler. You make some good points.
Yes, I agree there are no third chances in the 1,000 years. My view is the only people under eternal judgement before the resurrection during the 1,000 years are those that were baptized into Christ and received the Holy Spirit. Yes, God brings consequences and retribution for all evil, but for the ultimate purpose of rehabilitation. After the resurrection, that will be the eternal judgement period for mankind. The Bride Class you mentioned will rule over them, subordinate to Jesus. When “the knowledge of the LORD covers the earth as the waters cover the seas” (Habakkuk 2:14) there will be no excuse for evil. Then the wicked will be eternally destroyed, which will hopefully be a very small percentage of mankind.
1 Peter 4:18—“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”—is a sobering reminder of the narrowness of the path to life, even for the faithful. This verse I suggest is emphasizing the rigorous testing and refining that the righteous must undergo during their earthly probation, during the Gospel Age.
The “righteous” refers to those who have accepted Christ and are striving to walk in obedience and consecration. Their salvation is “scarcely” achieved not because God is unwilling, but because the path requires endurance, self-denial, and faithfulness under trial. This aligns with his broader teaching that the Church is being developed as the “little flock” who will reign with Christ in the Millennial Age.
As for “the ungodly and the sinner,” this is not a declaration of eternal destruction. Instead, such individuals will face judgment in the future—specifically during the Millennial Age—when they would have a full, fair opportunity to learn righteousness under Christ’s Kingdom. In that sense, 1 Peter 4:18 serves as both a warning to the consecrated and a foreshadowing of future accountability for the rest of humanity.
These are my suggestions. Thanks for your insights.
Hi Petter, sorry I’ve been very busy but thought I’d share my first general thought about those how do not call on Jesus getting another chance under Christ’s new system.
It seems illogical on its face that Jesus or those following him while he lived and in the immediate years after, would take a stand, often leading to torture and death if they thought they could just wait and take advantage of the next system where ther would be no pain or out cry. I mean sawn asunder or wait.
I will try to soon go through the scriptures you’ve listed showing how each fits into a logical framework. I enjoy your depth of thought though brother.
Hi Traveler,
I am glad that in your busy schedule you are still interested in continuing the conversation as you are able.
I would like to respond to the excellent question you raised about why wouldn’t Jesus followers escape suffering and just wait for the kingdom.
Those who followed Jesus during his earthly ministry and shortly thereafter were responding to a heavenly invitation—not merely waiting for earthly relief. He taught that:
– The Gospel Age was a special time when God was selecting a “little flock” (Luke 12:32) to be joint-heirs with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom.
– This calling required faithfulness unto death (Revelation 2:10), and suffering was a refining process to prepare the saints for glory (Romans 8:17–18) and responsibilities as earth’s future judges, priests and kings under Jesus, their head judge, priest and king.
– The future earthly Kingdom would be for the general blessing of mankind, but the Church’s role was to be part of the ruling class with Christ—hence the urgency and sacrifice.
Here are some key texts to support this view:
| Romans 8:17–18 | Suffering with Christ – Suffering is a prerequisite for glorification
| Revelation 2:10 | Faithfulness unto death – The crown of life is given to those who endure
| 2 Timothy 2:12 | Reigning with Christ – Endurance leads to co-rulership
| Luke 12:32 | The “little flock” – A select group called during the Gospel Age
| Acts 14:22 | Tribulation before the Kingdom – Entry into the Kingdom requires hardship
| Philippians 3:14 | High calling – A prize that demands pressing forward despite trials
Waiting passively for the Kingdom would mean missing the opportunity to be part of the first resurrection (Revelation 20:6), which is the reward for those who were faithful during the Gospel Age.
The idea of “just waiting” would miss the entire purpose of the Christian calling:
– The Church is being tested now, while the world will be blessed later.
– Those who suffer now are being prepared to bless others in the future (Galatians 3:29).
– The Kingdom is not merely a refuge, but a government of co-rulers, and that role requires that they are sanctified (become holy, pure, righteous)) through trial.
Trying to get in touch with where we left off.
The Bible states “the thinking man is hated”. All are anointed by the information of Jesus held. Jesus was anointed as his brothers it just says with more. The same case will be when the 144,000 are chosen.
The UPward call, or as some say the heavenly calling, is the call everyone hears to pursue the UPward path of reason laid out by Jesus as a beginning. All will suffer, all most remain faithful to death. The one exception is those alive when the end comes.
Jesus secured the promise of a resurrection that results in a return to existence. Jesus was the first one, the first fruit of this first resurrection returning those in the grave at the Twinkling back to existence. The second resurrection result of course are those who without ever returning to existence. Having not called on christ to do so, are cast into the lake of fire. The 144,000 are the least among humanity, fitting kings and priests. The stiff necked nation of Israel never got that God was making himself strong with that which is weak. Obviously they were some of the weakest on earth. Yes we are thankful for the real, the true Jews who served in humility and humbled themselves,so that the promises could be carried forward. Looking at the choosing, it’s interesting to note that the new nation created by Jesus, or through Jesus in the new order will still have tribes. We know that really only a relatively small number left the nation of Israel, and that there are those grafted in to this number. But “tribe” must have to do with the orderly running this new nation.
The new order will be the last possibility to be explored, a large number of people, enlightened during the Twinkling so they rise, are lifted UP to a perfect frame of mind, one with Jesus and God. There really is no possibility that those who did not call on Jesus and through him the promises, having never experienced the adoption, the “recieving of the “token of adoptive spirit”, and the full adoption through the event of the Twinkling, to be present in an area with out pain and suffering. The pat follows logic. Investigating the term “heaven” and it’s different means will help to some degree. Remembering that the authors of the Bible and the translators did not have a clear understanding of what they were seeing or what they were receiving helps us to see the need to keep our “eyes” fixed on the “unseen thing” the reality behind the words. Only with a fixed veiw, framework of this reality, God’s reality can we come to understand the importance of God’s statement “this Way leads to life.
Hi Traveler – I think you’re describing the transformative power of Jesus’ teachings and sacrifice, the hope of resurrection, and the establishment of a divine new order led by the humble and faithful, particularly the 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8). You emphasize reason, faithfulness, and spiritual adoption (Romans 8:15) as essential for life in God’s kingdom, while warning that those who reject Christ face destruction in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). The ‘Twinkling’ (1 Corinthians 15:52) is important in your explanation of the resurrection, where the faithful are transformed.
You have not addressed scriptures I cited as evidence that unbelievers will awaken in a future resurrection and have an opportunity to repent and accept Jesus. Would you agree or do your see their fate as sealed?
For me the best way for me to understand an answer is to respond “yes” or “no” then to followup with an explanation, otherwise sometimes it is difficult to be sure I understood the answer from the explanation. Thanks.
“1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth”
When God sent his son to reconcile humanity, God became the Savior of all. He is the Savior in that he made approach to God possible for any who would come to him. So in this sense God was a savior to those who pursued to gain life. Those who crossed from death to life are reminded that all can come. Remember the nation of Israel were and are a stiff necked people, thinking that they alone were Gods only people.
“1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV”
“Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]”
Actually the call is towards those that “desire”, those that pursue receive the spirit and the coming help of the bride. The prayer goes, “let your kingdom come” those who pursue, are under Gods influence through Jesus.. you know the rest.
“Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV”
The creation, the angels , await the new creations being delivered in the event of the Twinkling when that which is corruptible receives the full compliment of their inheritance and becomes incorruptible, a “new creation”.
“1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV”
The idea was brought up once that maybe we should go on sinning to make God’s forgiveness greater. Of course this was illogical. But 1 peter express’s the logical view that the persecution of those who maintain a firm stand will on inspection glorify God.
(1 Peter 1:3-4) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU. . .
We see that the promise to inherit the earth was now through the resurrection of Jesus reserved in heaven by Jesus taking up his kingship. Mankind outside of Jesus has never been called/invited to come to heaven.
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
(2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) 6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among YOU.
Clearly points out no second chance in a new order for those who do not call on Gods name through Christ.
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
We’ve talked already about the fact that Jesus reconciled us to God with his sacrifice, but we must pursue for the forgiveness of our own sins, as each of us sin’s in his own turn. So the word of the reconciliation, or words explaining the nature of the opportunity needed to be explained.
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
We know that we are the building blocks of a new house of God. Jesus is the corner stone. We just pointed out the word of the reconciliation was to go out.
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
(Romans 11:25-32) . . .For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. 30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.
We know that the “Nation of Israel” were disobedient to such an extent that the kingdom of God was taken from them. We also know that on the rejection of Jesus as king by the Nation, Jesus set about preaching the good news to the “son’s of Israel” Israel having no reference to the “Nation of” but to the offspring of Abraham by frame of mind, now the son’s of Israel by frame of mind. With a long standing pride in their relationship with God, some took more time to realize what was happening in their age, before following Jesus.
In all of these scriptures I see no reference to two “hopes” or two paths to salvation. One still must accept the opportunity of the reconciliation that paid humanity’s debt for Adams sin. Then we must become a footstep, or logical pursuer of the same direction that Jesus did to secure our personal hope of a resurrection result, of return to existence on earth. No where in the Bible is there any promise, of provision, for a new home in Heaven.
Thank you, Traveler, for your thoughtful reflections. I appreciate your emphasis on the necessity of faith and obedience in Christ for salvation. However, I still hold that the Scriptures point to a future resurrection of all—both just and unjust (Acts 24:15)—and that God’s redemptive plan includes an opportunity for unbelievers to come to know Christ in the age to come.
For example, Revelation 22:17 offers a universal invitation: “Let the one who is thirsty come,” which I understand as extending even to those who have not yet believed. Similarly, 1 John 2:2 speaks of Christ as the atoning sacrifice “not only for our sins but also for the sins of the whole world.” These and other passages suggest to me that the door of mercy remains open beyond this present life for those who never truly knew Him.
Would you say that all who died in ignorance of Christ are eternally lost? Or might they, too, be among those who “hear His voice” and “come out” in the resurrection (John 5:28-29)?
I’d be grateful for a simple “yes” or “no” to that question, followed by your thoughts, if you’re willing.
Hi Peter. I’m having trouble.navigating the site . I see the latest comment but when I tape on your answer it takes me to the first. Comment O made. Dah help please, foing this on my phone for now
Travelor – Yes, it is difficult to navigate. In the right panel, you can try clicking on “See More Latest Comments” in red font, just below “Latest Comments” and above “Recent Posts.”
Hi Peter, once we cross from death to life it states that we are not to be judged and those who don’t cross are already judged. True there will be no test in the thousand years because God does not have a need to, no sin. Yes as Adam we could chose a direction against God but it would result inimmediate death. Every tear is wiped because for the thousand years stain will not be allowed to affect humanities mind.
Hi Traveler – Thanks for some deep thoughts. I enjoyed looking up some of the scriptures I think you had in mind:
John 5:24 “- “Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life”.
John 3:18 – “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already…”
Revelation 20:4–6, mentions that the saints reign with Christ for a thousand years during a time of peace and righteousness, with Satan bound and unable to deceive the nations
Revelation 21:4 – “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain…”
Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8:10 state that God will write His law on their minds and hearts
I enjoy your manner of reply,very patient and loving. I beleive that the grasp of the level of suffering in this system should help us realize that allowing it to happen again in another system would be cruel, illogical. I visited a hospital wing for kids with cancer recently. Just walking down the long hall leading to it as parents with their children in wheelchairs holding stuffed animals was to much. What a kingdom of Christ’s new order would be like if those parents had to watch their kids fail and die in the next life would be like, well, just a small thought. The question is well answered in this system.
Traveler,
Good point. Let me suggest the possibility that in the future paradise kingdom on earth, which we can call “another system,” the outcome would be much more favorable for resurrected humanity, because the Truths of God’s righeous kingdome will be so clear, that even a fool would understand.
Isaiah 35:8: (ESV) And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray.
The Truth on this Way of Holiness will be so clear that even fools shall not go astray.
Once the blindness is removed after Satan is bound (restrained) during the 1,000 years (see Revelation 20:2), everyone will know God and the gospel message. At that time and in that kingdom on earth, the Scriptures say:
John 1:9: (NASB) This was the true Light (Jesus) that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. The fulfilment of this scripture must be in the future because every person has not yet been enlightened.
Once the veil of blindness, ignorance, superstition and deception is removed, mankind will be ready and anxious to learn all about God’s righteous principles in His future kingdom on earth.
Isaiah 29:18,24: In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who complained will learn doctrine.
Isaiah 26:9: …For when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 11:9-10: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse (Jesus), who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek him, and his resting place shall be glorious.
Micah 4:1-2: Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Learning will come from the house of the God of Jacob (Israel). Out of Zion…from Jerusalem will the Lord speak and teach.
Jeremiah 31:33-34: (KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 8:11: None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, Know the LORD, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
The idea that even a fool could follow addresses the differing levels of intelligence in the new “system”. No one is taught by his brother shows the result of the “Twinkling” and it’s clearing of the eyes of the great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses of what? Well the answered conclusion of the old system of Satan. Jesus and the 144,000 “bought from the earth” a reference to our group of beings made of earth, humanity as a whole, will teach us as a newly formed awareness above us, new Jerusalem. Thinking that those who stood against or those who just decided to not call on the name of God and his son, is a statement of a second asking of the outcome of this old system. There is a natural condition to “our savior” as a statement that leaves no room for those causing the need to be saved, to also be saved by second chance or other means. Lose of life was set clearly out in the first place, in the day that you eat, you will die. If you beleive in him you will be preserved alive, live. Those that make it into the new system need never die because they no longer “sin”. This is not a second try kingdom for those left outside of God’s Way. Love means logic in God’s Way leading to life must stand alone. Against other options.
Hi Traveler. There is always a LOT to unpack in your responses. You are always pulling from various Bible verses and concepts to weave a story and an answer. It is fun to try to look up and match the verses you are alluding to. Let me focus on for me what is the meat of your answer. You are making the point that there are NO second chances. God’s love is expressed through a logical, consistent system of justice and salvation. Choosing God’s way (through faith in Christ) is the only path to life, with no alternative routes.
Yes, I agree, except with your limitation that mankinds only opportunity for eternal life is to accept Jesus NOW as their Savior in this life before the resurrection. Or at least you are saying that if they did not take advantage of a clear opportunity in this life, they are FINISHED. It is over for them. No future opportunity. This presumes that God is judging mankind now. The denominational Christian world agrees with you on this, even though at the same time they talk about FUTURE judgement.
Revelation 20 (NASV95)
11 ¶ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Why can this judgment not be based on thier progress and behavior during the 1,000 years?
I would like to repost what I provided on June 12 which affirms that unbeleivers will have a future opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior.
I take the verses below to mean that God will have a special heavenly salvation for beleivers, but that he also has a salvation plan for the rest of the world. This makes sense since 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV and 1 Tim 2:4 says, God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
Seems my last two posts never showed up. I’ll keep trying.
Hi Travelor. None of your posts are in the spam folder. I am sorry I missed recent posts. The last post I have from you starts “Hi Petter, sorry I’ve been very busy…”
I am so glad I more or less stumbled on this site. It is interesting to note that there are still those out there who do not realize that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a splinter group from the IBSA. This mostly comes from people reading the JW literature and seeing this as the actual history of JW. Websites like this should set the record straight. If they care to take a look and learn.
The us dollar or Federal reserve note its value will be wiped out mostly this will cause a lot of people to go homeless and worse. the only way people in this world will make is the love of God. and the love of People. I am a anointed Jehovah’s witness please take this seriously. store up small amounts of supplies. over the next six months. Bible studies will be done in the home for most people during the time of our next world wide sickness. depend on Christ and Jehovah in prayer to guide you all to make good decisions. if you have give and it will be given you. get out of false religion thinking. but truth in your mind. May the love of our lord Jesus Christ and Jehovah be with you all please pray for healing of human kind and our earth.
Hello Peter
I am nearing 60 and was born, raised, and spent most of my life as a jW. Only in the last few years have my eyes been opened. I have written several articles and was wondering if you were interested. They are found here:
http://da.getmyip.com/PDF/Ramblings
yb
Dave
Thanks for sharing your link. Feel free to share your thoughts and start a discussion here. We like to discuss scriptures.
I love Jehovah and can see the kingdom of God. KD altavista virginia
Thanks. The kingdom of God is what we look forward to: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Rev 21:4 AV
Kingdom of God was present when Jesus was alive. He gave the upward calls message, present yourself, with your power of reason. He laid out the path of reason, in steps of reason. This is why those of the right frame of mind, the true Jew became footstep followers and in doing so we’re removed from the nation of Israel. Yes no Jews left in the Nation. Once you realize that in reality and the Bible frame of mind is everything, you can approach the “Great cloud of witnesses and understand the “Twinkling “.
Thanks Traveler. Would you like to explain the “Twinkling?”
Hi Peter. The Twinkling is an event in our future. Approach grasping it this Way. Lost approved frame of mind in the garden and the inheritance from the Father, God,of a complete quantity of active force, holy spirit. It’s this inheritance that gave mental capacity to acquire and exercise oneness of mind with our Father.
So we now need to make our minds over, UP. How can we do this? Well Jesus “reconciled ” humanity in relation to God by delivering the ransom for our Father, God. This means we can again approach God and ask to be forgiven our own personal sin so we can enter a adoption as children of our Father. So again we can make our minds over, UP, using the now given “token” of inherited active force/spirit, given on adoption. Jesus showed us a “WAY” to use this force on what was described as the UPward path,or to heed the UPward call.
This UPward path is taken by following the steps of reason Jesus revealed. This process of acquiring a oneness of mind with Jesus and our Father through progress UP the path is headed towards the full adoption at the event called tht “Twinkling”.
We see now in a “hazy outline” so we are called the ” great cloud of witnesses “. At the Twinkling, we receive our full inheritance of active force with its mind expanding capacity. This change in our nature allows us to fully comprehend/see Jesus and be seen by Jesus. Jesus “arrives in the “clouds” or minds of the great cloud of witnesses, the Twinkling event. We can assume it’s described this way because of the comparison between the event and the coming awarenesses from our Father.
Hi Travel,
The description you provided appears to reference several biblical concepts and scriptures, particularly from the New Testament, while incorporating some interpretive or theological language that may not directly quote specific verses but alludes to them. Below, I’ll identify the key scriptural connections based on the themes and phrases in your description, focusing on the Bible (using a standard translation like the New International Version or King James Version for reference).
Key Themes and Corresponding Scriptures:
The Twinkling Event:
The phrase “Twinkling” likely refers to the event described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (NIV)
This passage speaks of a future transformation of believers, often associated with the resurrection or rapture, where mortal bodies are changed into imperishable ones. Your description of the “Twinkling” as a future event involving a change in nature and receiving a “full inheritance” aligns closely with this scripture.
Lost Frame of Mind in the Garden:
The reference to losing an “approved frame of mind in the garden” points to the Fall of Man in Genesis 3, where Adam and Eve’s disobedience resulted in separation from God and the loss of their original state of harmony and communion with Him. This is implied rather than directly quoted, but the concept of losing an “inheritance” of oneness with God fits this narrative.
Inheritance of Active Force/Holy Spirit:
The idea of an “inheritance” of the Holy Spirit connects to several New Testament passages:
Ephesians 1:13-14:
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession…” (NIV)
This speaks of the Holy Spirit as a “deposit” or “token” (as you mentioned) of the future full inheritance, which aligns with your description of receiving an active force upon adoption.
Romans 8:15-17 also ties in:
“The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship… and co-heirs with Christ…” (NIV)
This supports the idea of adoption as children of God and receiving an inheritance.
Jesus’ Reconciliation and Ransom:
The description of Jesus “reconciling” humanity through a “ransom” directly refers to scriptures like:
1 Timothy 2:5-6:
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people…” (NIV)
Colossians 1:19-20:
“For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things… by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” (NIV)
These passages explain how Jesus’ sacrifice restores the relationship between humanity and God, enabling believers to approach God for forgiveness and adoption.
Making Our Minds Over, UP:
The concept of transforming or renewing the mind is found in Romans 12:2:
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (NIV)
Your description of “making our minds over, UP” aligns with this call to spiritual transformation and aligns with achieving oneness with God’s will.
The Upward Path/Call:
The “UPward path” or “UPward call” directly echoes Philippians 3:13-14:
“…Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” (NIV)
The “heavenward” or “upward call” (as translated in some versions) matches your description of a path of spiritual progress toward oneness with God and Jesus.
Great Cloud of Witnesses:
The phrase “great cloud of witnesses” is a direct reference to Hebrews 12:1:
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us…” (NIV)
Your description ties this to believers seeing “in a hazy outline” and progressing toward the Twinkling, suggesting a connection between the witnesses (faithful believers) and the future transformation.
Seeing Jesus in the Clouds:
The imagery of Jesus “arriving in the clouds” connects to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven… and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air…” (NIV)
Additionally, Revelation 1:7 states:
“Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him…” (NIV)
Your description of Jesus arriving in the “clouds” or minds of the witnesses may be an interpretive blend of these verses with the idea of spiritual enlightenment or transformation at the Twinkling.
Seeing in a Hazy Outline:
The phrase “we see now in a hazy outline” likely alludes to 1 Corinthians 13:12:
“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (NIV)
This verse speaks of incomplete understanding now, contrasted with full comprehension in the future, which fits your description of the Twinkling as a moment of receiving full mental capacity and seeing Jesus clearly.
Analysis and Summary:
Well said. The truth is hidden because it’s in the langauge, the conceptual images that inspired the words. Remember that the expressions recorded were a conversation for those who are given eyes to see and ears to hear by God through Jesus revealed steps of logic. The author often not actually understanding what he was recording because it’s meaning was meant for ears generations later.
Keeping your eye on the unseen things is key. Humanity was meant to have continued existence by pursue a certain direction, as God also does. While there is much to that statement it connects simply further up the path. Adam and Eve lost their relationship with their Father. God knew of this possibility when he shared information that allowed for free will. To re-enter the family relationship has always been the goal set for Adam’s and Eves children, humanity.
It is believed by meany that Jesus was sent to save the entire inhabited earth. What isn’t understood is he was, just not as they’ve envisioned.The Bible says Satan roamed about in earth. I always thought that was a strange way to put it. Then I realized we in slaves form are given a permanent house on crossing from death to life legally in our belief. We are dust/earth but are existing in our body’s as in a tent. It becomes a home with the promise of “the first resurrection “. Then Jesus returns to his Father and asks for the spirit of understanding/helper to be poured out to fill us with new awarenesses making our house a mansion. Each person in crossing from death to life receives a token of adoptive spirit which mean that the are no longer dead but now inhabit the earth, their body. the inheritance promised to Abraham’s offspring to inherit the earth. We are the offspring of Abraham mentally. So the entire inhabited earth.
The process of the return to, or I would say of the garden to its original state is clear in that we are God’s field under cultivation as adopted children.
The truth is simple and makes your paths straight, one step at a time.
Hi Travel – Your comments contain several concepts and phrases that appear to allude to various Bible verses, particularly from the New Testament, with some references to Old Testament themes. As it may be an additonal blessing to our readers, below, I’ll identify the likely Bible verses or passages being alluded to, based on your language and ideas presented, while keeping the response concise and focused.
“Eyes to see and ears to hear”
This phrase directly echoes Jesus’ teachings about spiritual perception, often used in the context of parables.
Possible Verses:
Matthew 13:16 – “But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.”
Mark 4:9 – “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
Deuteronomy 29:4 (Old Testament precursor) – “But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.”
The comment suggests that divine revelation through Jesus enables understanding of hidden truths, aligning with these verses.
“Keeping your eye on the unseen things”
This likely refers to focusing on spiritual or eternal realities rather than temporary, material ones.
Possible Verse:
2 Corinthians 4:18 – “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.”
The emphasis on pursuing an eternal direction connects to this idea of prioritizing spiritual truths.
“Adam and Eve lost their relationship with their Father”
This alludes to the Fall in Genesis, where disobedience severed humanity’s direct communion with God.
Possible Verses:
Genesis 3:8-24 – Describes Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden, symbolizing the loss of their relationship with God.
Romans 5:12 – “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.”
The comment frames humanity’s goal as restoring this relationship, a common biblical theme.
“Jesus was sent to save the entire inhabited earth”
This points to Jesus’ redemptive mission, though the comment reinterprets it in a spiritual or metaphorical sense.
Possible Verses:
John 3:17 – “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”
1 John 4:14 – “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.”
The phrase “inhabited earth” may also connect to Revelation 12:9 (see below for Satan reference), where the earth is a domain of spiritual conflict.
“Satan roamed about in earth”
This directly references Satan’s activity on earth, often depicted as a tempter or adversary.
Possible Verse:
Job 1:7 – “The Lord said to Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the Lord, ‘From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.’”
1 Peter 5:8 – “Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”
The comment’s phrasing suggests a metaphorical view of humanity’s earthly existence as influenced by spiritual forces.
“From death to life”
This phrase reflects the transition from spiritual death to eternal life through faith in Jesus.
Possible Verses:
John 5:24 – “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
Ephesians 2:1-5 – “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins… But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ.”
The comment ties this to belief and adoption into God’s family.
“Our body’s as in a tent”
The imagery of the body as a temporary dwelling is a common biblical metaphor.
Possible Verse:
2 Corinthians 5:1 – “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.”
“Spirit of understanding/helper”
This likely refers to the Holy Spirit, described as a helper or advocate.
Possible Verses:
John 14:26 – “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
John 16:13 – “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”
The “mansion” imagery may also loosely connect to John 14:2 (“My Father’s house has many rooms”), though the comment uses it metaphorically for spiritual growth.
“Inheritance promised to Abraham’s offspring”
This alludes to the covenant with Abraham, extended to believers as his spiritual heirs.
Possible Verses:
Galatians 3:29 – “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Romans 4:13 – “It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.”
“God’s field under cultivation”
This imagery portrays believers as a field being cultivated by God, a biblical metaphor for spiritual growth.
Possible Verse:
1 Corinthians 3:9 – “For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.”
The restoration of the “garden” (Eden) aligns with themes of renewal, as in Revelation 21:1-5 (new heaven and new earth).
“The first resurrection”
This directly references the resurrection of believers, a key eschatological concept.
Possible Verse:
Revelation 20:5-6 – “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.”
“Makes your paths straight”
This echoes wisdom literature and teachings about divine guidance.
Possible Verse:
Proverbs 3:6 – “In all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.”
Matthew 3:3 (quoting Isaiah 40:3) – “A voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”
The comment uses this to emphasize simplicity and clarity in following God’s truth.
Summary
Your comments weave together a tapestry of biblical themes, including spiritual perception (Matthew 13:16), eternal focus (2 Corinthians 4:18), the Fall (Genesis 3), redemption through Jesus (John 3:17), the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), Abraham’s inheritance (Galatians 3:29), and eschatological hope (Revelation 20:5-6). You interpret these in a metaphorical, spiritualized way, emphasizing adoption into God’s family and the transformation of believers as the “inhabited earth.”
I have to ask, are you using AI to respond? While tone relates to sound or speech, it is a common mistake to beleive language does also. Language relates to the conceptual images behind the words. The Bible states you search the scriptures believing eternal life can be found among them. The problem is it won’t be found unless you “peer” into them. Frame of mind is and was what is important. It must be that the mind using the token gets a “sense” of direction. Meditating on that sensed direction, or a general holding of the information Jesus revealed relating to this direction, will start to add “UP” so at a certain point one can ponder the whole to achieve insight and a conclusion or stand. This process is taking the truth as your own. They Bible points out they go on learning and learning never able to come to an accurate conclusion. My experience is that “they” have no overview, no frame work that allows the logical ordering of the information received in the Bible. While the consideration of adoption goes a long way in explaining this overview it does not explain the deeper things such as why God pursues, or what information shared by God allowed for free will, the asking of a question or how a question exists in the “First” place.
While you evidently connect statements like God’s field under cultivation as a metaphor, in reality we being made of dust are literally being cultivated through mental manipulation. Much as Adam would have manipulated the growth of say the black mulberry tree.
Sorry that’s tongue not tone
I think the one thing bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses can agree on is that the 144000 is a government. its the interpretation of wicked slave is what leaders of the watchtower of today they disagree on. so bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses have separated them selves from each other on.
Yes, in Rev 7 we have 144,000 sealed out of the twelve tribes of (spiritual) Israel who are with the lamb on Mount Zion (compare Heb 12:22). In Rev 14, the 144,000 are described as redeemed, virgins, first fruits and are before the throne of God. These virgins become the bride of Christ (Rev 21:2), the heavenly government on the future Paradise Earth. Rutherford created a new organization called the Jehovah’s Witnesses and changed the doctrines. The Bible Students separated and continued with the original belief as independent congregations with no central control from a governing body and were then called evil slaves by the new organization. Do you have any further thoughts to share or questions? Feel fee to share.