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Well all are stand in the russurection all thise in a memorial tomb hear his voice and return to existence. But those left in the grathe grave who also are receiving their reward from the resurrection process, ar e handed int Jesus keeping to await the coming destruction. While I agree all are resurrected, the Bible is also very clear not all return to life, consciousness.
As for the bride, you seem to hold them as in some way other than servants of the greater number. Jesus himself if a servant to the greater number in his service to his Father. The witness’s come near to worshiping the 144,000, if they haven’t now. Jesse washed the feet to point out that ther is only one great teacher, on God to worship. It must be that those who are least are the balance or we return to a old system. Again the last resrrction result takes from the grave to be cast into destruction, no second chance.
Thank you for your continued engagement and for sharing your convictions so sincerely. I can see that you are deeply concerned with upholding what you believe is God’s clear standard of justice—and I respect that.
If I may, I’d like to respond to a few of your points—not to argue, but to offer a perspective rooted in the broader scriptural testimony and in harmony with the beautiful outlines of God’s plan that unfold throughout the Scriptures.
* Resurrection Means a Return to Life, Not Merely Judgment
You mentioned that resurrection “has nothing to do with consciousness or the return to life,” but is rather a standing for judgment. However, the Scriptures speak plainly of resurrection (anastasis) as a rising again from death—a restoration of life and consciousness.
“The hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth…” — John 5:28–29
Clearly, to “come forth” from the graves implies a return to living existence, since the dead “know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Jesus was not merely describing a figurative standing before God, but a literal awakening from death—some to life, and some to judgment.
This same truth is echoed in Acts 24:15:
“There shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.”
Both classes are brought forth. The “unjust” are not raised merely for destruction, but for judgment—a righteous trial, with opportunity for correction and restoration during the Messianic reign.
* The Narrow Way Now vs. the Highway of Holiness to Come
Yes, the path to the high calling—the Bride of Christ—is indeed narrow, and few find it now (Matthew 7:14). These are the overcomers who walk in the Master’s footsteps, suffering with Him now to reign with Him later (2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 3:21). That calling is precious and exclusive.
But we must not conflate the high calling with the general resurrection promised to all mankind. The Apostle Paul writes:
“As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order…” — 1 Corinthians 15:22–23
This speaks not just of the Church, but of all mankind, each in his appointed time. The “order” here reflects God’s wise sequence: first the Church (the firstfruits), and afterward the world during the age of restitution (Acts 3:21).
* God’s Plan Includes Opportunity—Not Universal Salvation
To clarify: the hope set before mankind in the next age is not a second chance, but a first real opportunity, under ideal conditions, without the blinding influence of Satan (Revelation 20:2–3). The ransom provided by Christ is indeed “for all” (1 Timothy 2:6), to be testified in due time—not all at once.
Even those who “did not know” are not judged with finality now (John 12:47–48). Jesus says:
“The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”
That day—the Millennium—is the time of trial for the world, when knowledge of God will fill the earth (Isaiah 11:9), and the willing may walk upon the highway of holiness (Isaiah 35:8–10).
* On the 144,000 and the Spirit of Servitude
You rightly emphasize humility and servanthood. Jesus, though Lord of all, “took upon him the form of a servant” (Philippians 2:7). Likewise, the 144,000—though called to reign with Christ—are also servants to the world in the age to come, as priests and kings (Revelation 20:6), helping mankind rise from sin and death.
They are not worshiped. In fact, Revelation 19:10 shows John being corrected for bowing to an angel: “See thou do it not… Worship God.” The faithful Bride of Christ will reflect the same humility, pointing always to the Father and to the Lamb.
* A Harmonious Plan—Justice, Mercy, and Truth
God has a plan that is a balance of justice and mercy—not arbitrary destruction, nor universal salvation, but a ransom for all (Romans 5:18–19), and a fair trial for each soul in due time. Those who will not learn righteousness under Christ’s beneficent reign will indeed be cut off in the second death (Acts 3:23), but not before they receive full opportunity to choose life.
Thank you again, Traveler, for your earnest concern for truth. I believe we share a love for God’s justice and righteousness—and that we both long to uphold His holiness. May our continued discussion reflect His Spirit of grace and clarity as we “search the Scriptures” together (John 5:39).
I’m not sure why you are not connecting coming forth with standing before God. This does not mean they are conscious. The judged clearly are left in the grave. They are not forgiven their personal sin even though they were reconciled and given the chance of a hope before they enter the grave. Yes as you say and I’ve repeated, resurrection can mean a return to life, but as in a car wreck some live ,some, die, but it’s still a car wreck. It is only the memorial thombs that are emptied, the grave is not. The grave is given into Jesus keeping and those in it remain judged. You obviously are well versed in the scriptures I really fail to see how you can’t see the two clear distinctions of a resurrection outcome. The first as in Jesus and the twinkly, the second those in the grave left in the grave by resurrection reward. The grave and those in it are not destroyed until the end of the thousand years. I think we may be at an honest impasse. Although I see you think deeply. I will take time to reference those scriptures that lay out that the narrow path leads to a life giving resurrection and the broad way leads to death in the grave, both by the end of this system.
Thank you once again for your thoughtful reply and for continuing this sincere dialogue. I appreciate your clarity and conviction, and I sense your strong desire to honor God’s justice and truth. That is truly commendable.
You’ve raised several important points, and while we may see certain matters from different angles, I believe our shared goal is the same—to rightly divide the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15) and to glorify our Heavenly Father.
You affirmed that those in the memorial tombs will hear His voice and return to existence—a point on which we fully agree. As Jesus said in John 5:28-29, “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth.” This “coming forth” indicates not just a symbolic recognition, but a real reanimation—a return to life and consciousness. It is the unjust as well as the just who are raised, not simply to receive a verdict, but to be given the opportunity to learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9) under the favorable conditions of Christ’s reign.
The thought that some are “left in the grave” while also “resurrected” as a form of judgment may need further scriptural clarification. The grave (sheol/hades) itself is to be emptied (Revelation 20:13), and death and hades are ultimately destroyed (Revelation 20:14). This symbolic destruction of the grave represents the end of Adamic death and the full release of mankind into individual trial under the Messianic Kingdom. The idea of some being “resurrected but still dead” seems inconsistent with the meaning of resurrection (Greek anastasis), which always implies a standing up again from death to life—even if for trial.
It’s important, as you note, that there is no “second chance” in the next age—but most of mankind has never yet had a full, fair first chance for life, due to inherited weakness and the blinding influence of Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4). Christ’s ransom secures the right for all to a fair trial under more favorable conditions in the Kingdom.
Those who remain willfully disobedient, after full enlightenment and opportunity, will indeed be destroyed in the Second Death—eternal extinction. That is justice, tempered by the mercy of a thorough opportunity beforehand (Acts 3:23).
You raise an important and beautiful truth: that Jesus, though Lord, became a servant (Philippians 2:7), and so must all His followers. The 144,000 are not exalted for their own sake, but are “called to serve” as kings and priests (Revelation 20:6), ministering to the world during the restitution age. Their reign is not about dominion, but about uplifting—helping to restore the willing and obedient to perfection. The true Bride of Christ does not seek praise or worship, but—like her Lord—points all glory to the Father.
I would agree with you that any tendency to elevate the 144,000 beyond their rightful role as humble servants would be a grave error. The Lord’s true people must cultivate meekness, humility, and love—seeking to serve, not to rule in pride.
Brother, I believe we share much common ground: a high regard for God’s justice, a recognition of Christ’s ransom as central to all hope, and a longing to uphold the simplicity and depth of Scriptural truth. Though we may understand certain symbols or sequences differently, I am thankful for this exchange and your genuine love for truth.
Let us both continue, as Jesus said, to “search the Scriptures,” and to walk humbly before our God (Micah 6:8), trusting that in His due time, all things will be made clear.
Just one thing while I digest the distance in your thoughts. The nature of the question that we’re raised by Satan and Eve relating to God’s right to decide right and wrong, his sovereignty. Are such that on allowing the question to be asked, this means lived to conclusion, God was bound. God can not destroy any individual until the question is answered, is there a WAY to life apart from God’s WAY? This is why when the memorial tombs are emptied at the Twinkling, what is left sheol, is nessary, to hold those who by their action did not call on Jesus ask for God’s help through Jesus’s name. They remain as, was their free will,,, in mankind’s common grave. When looking at the resurrection and it’s out come, don’t for get that theirs a choice to be made. Eve made it.I have to admit, Another chance has to be on every mind, no man being fit for life. But for the man who stumbles one of the littlest, second chance? That sentence was one of those profound moments that are marked in you mind,,, how much can your brother bare? I finally as a footstep follow under-stand,,,”tread lightly.”
Traveler,
Thank you again, sincerely, for your persistence in wrestling with these profound matters of life, justice, and resurrection. Your reverence for the seriousness of God’s government is admirable, and I appreciate the space you’ve allowed for this exchange to be not only scriptural, but also brotherly.
Regarding your latest point—that God’s justice required the full outworking of Satan’s question (whether there’s life apart from God’s way), and that for this reason, He could not destroy individuals before this was answered—I believe there’s deep truth in that. God’s allowance of evil for a time is not weakness, but wisdom. The great lesson of permitted evil is essential to proving the futility of rebellion and the absolute necessity of divine order. This grand object lesson must be fully learned by all intelligent creation.
You emphasize that those who do not call on Jesus remain in the grave, receiving the outcome of their own willful choice. I understand your thought to be that the resurrection reveals—not grants—reward or punishment, and that in some cases, the grave continues to hold them, not because of delay, but as a testimony to their rejection of God’s way.
While I agree that those who ultimately reject God’s arrangement will not be granted life, I would make a distinction: the Scriptures teach that resurrection itself implies an awakening—a return to conscious life, even if only for the purpose of testing, trial, and final judgment. The process of “standing again” (Greek anastasis) is consistently portrayed as a conscious reawakening, not a mere designation of fate.
John 5:28–29 says that “all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth”—both the just and unjust. Coming forth implies awareness and life, however brief or extended. Revelation 20:13–14 speaks of death and hades giving up the dead in them. If these domains give up the dead, and then are themselves destroyed in the lake of fire, there remains no further holding ground. The time of final separation comes after the resurrection, not instead of it.
You rightly remind us that many misunderstand this to mean a “universal salvation,” where consequence is removed. But I would say, the danger is not in overemphasizing opportunity, but in underestimating the rigor of the judgment to come. The resurrection age will not be one of relaxed standards, but of righteous government (Isaiah 26:9), where every individual is judged according to their own deeds (Revelation 20:12), under full enlightenment and absence of Satanic deception (Revelation 20:3).
Those who come forth in the resurrection, and yet remain unrepentant, will face what the Scriptures call the second death—not torment, but extinction (Acts 3:23). The mercy lies not in leniency, but in the opportunity to choose rightly, in a way not possible under the blinding influences of the present evil world (2 Corinthians 4:4).
I wholeheartedly agree with your emphasis that the glorified Bride of Christ must serve in humility. Those chosen to reign with Christ are not elevated for praise, but for service. As Jesus washed the feet of His disciples, so the 144,000 will, in glory, guide and uplift the willing of mankind during the age of restitution (Revelation 20:6; Isaiah 1:26). They are not to be revered or exalted above others, but are servants in the pattern of their Lord. The Kingdom work is restorative, not triumphalist.
Finally, you said, “Another chance must be on every mind… how much can your brother bear?” That moved me. It echoes the mercy and patience we are called to extend to others, even as we uphold the seriousness of truth. If the Gospel reveals anything, it is that divine justice is not cold—it is just. And divine mercy is not indulgent—it is wise.
Let us continue, dear brother, to reason together. We may differ in how we frame some aspects, but if we are both seeking the same God, the same Lord, and the same spirit of truth, we are not far apart.
I mention resurrection has nothing to do with the return to life, I put that badly. Resurrection is a process of standing before God to receive either life, if you are forgiven, calling on Jesus name, or to remain in the grave, judged by your actions in this system. Jesus in recieving Kingship over God’s kingdom, in heaven and Earth, is given authority over the grave, holding those in it who are awaiting the fulfillment of the judgment in the lake of fire.The passages, ” if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, so where will the unrightous man make a showing,” and “the reward of sin is death”, along with the statement that those who do not call on christ are already judged gives a clear picture of the two outcomes. It is this lack of connection between the two outcomes of the one process, resurrection that allows calming of the general population of let’s use Christianities name , “lay people” or those who have no clear framework to use that continues this idea everyone gets saved, there is no real consequence to our actions in this system, idea. I believe your depth is by far the exception in those holding this train of thought.
I’ve gain a great respect for your ability to carry on a vigorous consideration, while cultivating a relationship of brotherly love and respect. I struggle to achieve a ability of patience that’s as healthy as yours,at times.
Having found the UPward path and the framework structure it forms, I “see” that being set free is something I and most people have grasp in an understanding far from the real experience. I am trying to come to terms with association with a population of followers on every level, as I must. Oh “see”, every “eye” will see, or every one must know can only be related to those who call on the name of Jesus,which is an active role. And who receive eyes to see and ears to hear. The majority on the broad path remain blind followers, their senses dulled. So the entire INHABITED earth is saved, which fits the Few it says make it into the new system. It’s two in the morning here sorry if I ramble.
Thank you again for your sincere and persistent engagement. I can see that you are striving to harmonize scriptural teachings with the broader principles of divine justice—a noble and commendable effort.
You raise again a distinction between those in the memorial tombs and those you describe as being “left in the grave,” suggesting that some do not return to consciousness. I believe our difference stems, not from disagreement about judgment or accountability, but from the interpretation of what resurrection fully entails.
I beleive that the resurrection (Greek: anastasis) always implies a rising up from death—a return to life and consciousness, even if it is for trial and testing. John 5:28–29 clearly states, “all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth”—not just the righteous, but the unjust also. This shows resurrection as the means by which both classes are brought forth—not merely to receive a verdict, but to come under Christ’s reign, where they can learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).
You suggest that the “grave is not emptied,” and that some remain in it to await destruction. Please notice that Revelation 20:13 says, “the sea gave up the dead… and death and hades gave up the dead which were in them.” Perhaps this shows that all who have died are awakened for judgment. Revelation 20:14 then tells us that death and hades themselves are cast into the lake of fire—symbolizing their complete and final destruction. It seems that there is no further “holding place” after this resurrection—only a righteous judgment according to individual deeds under Christ’s kingdom. However, I do agree that those who reject Christ after a resurrection opportunity will be eternally destroyed (anniahlation / out of existance) and perhaps that is what you meant and our difference here is only in semantics.
I appreciate your emphasis on consequences and the seriousness of God’s moral government. However, I would gently emphasize the beauty and mercy of the Divine Plan. God’s justice does not preclude opportunity; rather, His justice demands that every man be judged individually—apart from inherited weakness—under the clearer light of Christ’s reign (Acts 17:31).
You mentioned the powerful verse, “If the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:18). This certainly reinforces the seriousness of God’s moral standards.
Let me suggest that this verse refers primarily to the Church class now being called out—those on the “narrow way” (Matt. 7:14) who are striving for the prize of the high calling (Phil. 3:14). Their salvation is indeed “with difficulty,” because it involves full consecration, sacrifice, and overcoming in the present evil world—while Satan still blinds and opposes (2 Cor. 4:4).
So if even this faithful class is being tried so severely now, I suggest that Peter’s rhetorical question emphasizes the weight of accountability that will come upon the ungodly in their own time of trial—during the Millennial Age. They will not appear in favorable judgment unless they respond to the light of Christ when it shines upon them.
I believe that this is not a condemnation to destruction before opportunity, but a sober warning that God’s standards do not change. The Millennial judgment will not be a relaxed trial, but a righteous and thorough one. Only those who respond to Christ’s reign with obedience and repentance will come through to life. The rest, having rejected light under ideal conditions, will face the Second Death (Acts 3:23).
So yes, the verse is a warning—but not to deny resurrection and opportunity to the unjust. Rather, it affirms that all salvation—whether of the Church now or the world later—requires heart-deep transformation and submission to God’s will.
In closing, you made an insightful comment: that “every eye will see” must mean those who actively respond to Jesus. I agree. While all will be raised and enlightened, only those who “see and hear” in the heart—through faith and obedience—will receive life everlasting. The highway of holiness is open to all, but only the willing will walk upon it (Isaiah 35:8).
Let us keep reasoning together, holding fast to Scripture, and walking in humility. If we differ in some points, I believe we do so in a spirit of brotherly sincerity and shared reverence for God’s Word.
The scripture fit to set things straight. So I’ll try to lay out a diligent graph os the grave and it’s conditions from Adam on. I think that “standing up” or”standing before God” have long suffered from poor translation based on poorer understanding. But tracesing the grave, and the process of ressurection and its effect, I have always thought to be rather straight forward. If I’m mistaken we’ll see. I find this resurrection issue to me very similar to discussing the Theory of the trinity, with people who have no idea that it’s already historical fact that it’s not in the Bible and was never meant to address three individual identities. SO ITS STIIL INT THE NANE OF THE father, the Son and the Holy ghost,,, instead of inheritance name of the Father, the son,,, in holy spirit. Even though the know some about adoption.
Now I don’t think this is the case with you. You use scripture. Where I use over veiw and opinion thinking after my 50 odd years of pursuit that any, I admit I expect few, my life lesson that just the basic logic of right and wrong should win the day. I think you deserve my respect and effort. I’ll try to raise to the occasion. Thank you for your patience.
Thanks for the reply. I understand your view that some are judged in the grave and never raised. I agree that some may reject truth even after resurrection and face the second death (Heb. 10:26–29). But isn’t that different from being condemned without ever awakening?
If “God wills all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4), wouldn’t He at least give that opportunity to those who died in ignorance?
First, I apologize for the lack of editing and spelling errors as I use my phone, not having time to sit at my laptop lately.
Before I dive into trashing the grave, it struck me that if as you are putting forward every person awakened perfect from death must have a fully aware right to choose, then everything recorded after Adam and Eve’s fall would be pointless suffering. Each new birth could have been alive and perfect to stand or fall as you suggest.
In all of this I beleive that you miss that God is all knowing,i.e, he has no beginning, and that he can be found on many levels by his own direction. Just a couple of thoughts for I suspect quite some time as I try to do your train of thought, a just consideration in tracing the grave.
[Note from Peter K to Traveler: I could not understand these comments and made minor corrections of typos hoping to capture the actual thought. Let me know if I misrepresented your thoughts, but try to be more careful in your wording. Thanks.]
Traveler, thank you for continuing the conversation. I’ve read your comments from July 28 carefully, and I can see your sincerity and concern for biblical truth. However, I believe a key element of God’s plan is being overlooked—the larger purpose of the resurrection and the future judgment.
You speak as though the current life is the only probation for mankind, but Scripture points to a future time of awakening and opportunity. The grave—Sheol, Hades is the unconscious sleep of death from which all will be raised (John 5:28-29). And that awakening is not to immediate reward or destruction, but to education, correction, and opportunity under the righteous reign of Christ.
The trials of this present age—its confusion, sin, and death—are the tragic result of the fall. But God, in His wisdom, allowed this for a purpose: that mankind might learn the bitter consequences of sin and be better prepared to accept righteousness when His kingdom is established on earth. That kingdom will be the true day of judgment (Acts 17:31)—not a day of vengeance, but a time in which all will come to understand God’s ways clearly, free from Satan’s deceptions.
You say justice demands that judgment is final now, but is that justice—eternal loss for those who never truly knew Christ or had a fair chance? Or is it justice that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess (Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10-11)—not by force, but through enlightenment and free will?
Yes, some will choose rebellion even in that perfect age. They will be judged accordingly, and the second death awaits them—not torment, but annihilation. But most, I believe, will rejoice in their opportunity and choose life. That is the mercy and wisdom of our God.
You use fair as if it is some how disconnected from free will. The truth has been revealed to the entire earth, in terms we all understand. If you call on christ you have hope, you are not judged, your sins are forgiven. If you chose not to, you remain judged, it says. The kindow of God, on earth, was handed to Jesus as king. It was already on earth. It’s followers are acquiring his adoptive spirit with its increased mental capacity. To stand up, does as we’ve talked about, not require you are conscious. The test of the large population of those enlightened by the Twinkling is the last option to be tried by humanity. As God envisioned it will lead to life, after mankind has lost that hope at Armageddon. “fair” seems far out of touch with cause and effect related to the suffering in the veiw you’re putting forward.
We need to finish establishing the truth purpose of “resurrection”
Seems to me that with the veiw you are working with. “White washed Graves” might have been very much an over reaction on Jesus part. Jesus was sent to show us a “way” out of the grave because if you continued living according to the world you would die without hope. As always I enjoy you sincere effort to hold this veiw.
Thank you once again for your heartfelt engagement. Your sincerity and deep concern for God’s justice and sovereignty are evident, and I appreciate the effort you’re making to grapple with these weighty matters, even amid the constraints of typing from a phone.
You mentioned that “fair seems far out of touch with cause and effect,” and that the truth has already been revealed to the entire earth. Yet I wonder—has the truth really been made clear to all, in a form they can understand and act upon, without deception, confusion, or inherited weakness? Scripture tells us plainly that “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving” (2 Cor. 4:4), and that Christ came as a “ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Tim. 2:6). That “due time” is not the present for most of mankind.
While I agree that those who hear and respond to Christ now are forgiven and not judged (John 5:24), that is not the full extent of God’s redemptive plan. You spoke of the Kingdom as already present—and yes, the Jesus’ faithful followers represent Christ’s kingdom on earth now—but the Scriptures also speak of a coming worldwide Kingdom, when “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9). That time has not yet arrived.
You asked: why permit thousands of years of suffering if people could be raised perfect and free to choose? That’s a fair question. But consider: the permission of evil has been necessary to teach humanity the bitter fruits of sin and self-rule. The divine plan is not merely about restoring what was lost, but about establishing permanent, heart-deep loyalty to righteousness through experience. This present evil age serves as a dark backdrop against which the glory of Christ’s Kingdom will shine more brightly—and more persuasively—when it is revealed.
You referenced “standing up” not requiring consciousness. Yet the Greek word for resurrection—anastasis—literally means “to stand again,” implying an awakening from death. John 5:28–29 affirms that “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth.” That is not a metaphor or designation of fate—it is an actual reawakening to life for the purpose of testing, learning, and judgment.
I wholeheartedly agree with your concern that the doctrine of universal opportunity has been watered down in many circles. But we must not let that abuse cloud the actual scriptural teaching: that God has planned a future age in which Christ will reign in righteousness, and all will have the opportunity to learn, repent, and choose life. This is not a lax trial. It will be strict and just. Those who persist in disobedience, even under perfect conditions, will face the second death (Acts 3:23; Rev. 20:15). But God’s character demands that all be given a chance under fair conditions.
Regarding “whitewashed tombs,” I see no overreaction in Jesus’ words. He was exposing hypocrisy—those who appeared righteous but were inwardly corrupt. That same principle will apply in the Kingdom age: outward conformity will not suffice. God will judge the heart.
Finally, I resonate with your statement that “we need to finish establishing the true purpose of resurrection.” Indeed we do. The resurrection is not merely a sorting mechanism—it is a restorative process. Not everyone will pass that test, but all must be given the opportunity. As Paul said, “there shall be a resurrection of the just and the unjust” (Acts 24:15). Only then can every knee bow and every tongue confess, not under coercion, but from enlightened conviction (Phil. 2:10–11).
Let us continue to reason together, keeping Scripture as our guide. I appreciate your brotherly tone and the depth of your thought.
I beleive you are sincere. In the scriptures you use I see a clear picture of the question being ask and answered, once, not twice. While you see a set of systems where mankind is forgiven. I beleive I will have to produce a more in depth exploration if we are to arrive together at a common conclusion. Thank you for your motivating patience and example. I would point out that those who are given ears and eyes are not blinded, but preserved alive,existing in memorial thombs. Where those who are judged are simply in the grave. But to be fair I think we’ve covered t g is thought. I will set to the task. Your brother in pursuit.
Thank you again, brother. I appreciate your determination to explore these matters more deeply.
You’re right—the question of resurrection deserves careful thought. While I recognize your view that the process involves a single, decisive outcome, I believe Scripture reveals a broader purpose: not only to declare judgment but to provide the opportunity for education, correction, and transformation under Christ’s reign.
The “memorial tombs” you mentioned will indeed be opened (John 5:28–29), and those awakened will “stand again”—not to repeat this present life, but to walk a new path under righteous conditions. It is in that “world to come” (Heb. 2:5) that many, for the first time, will see clearly and choose freely.
I agree with your commitment to truth, and I look forward to your further exploration. May our shared pursuit lead us closer to the full counsel of God.
Hi Peter. I’ve revisited my past considerations, which I probably should have done soon. I’ll post a “heads up” short conclusion here now and the lengthier consideration after.
Here is the in brief the reasons for the misunderstanding of the process of standing before God, the resurrection event, and it’s out, come, or not, reward.
(Philippians 3:10-11) 10 so as to know him and the power of his resurrection and a sharing in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.
The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead. [Literally, the out-resurrection of the dead (ones)].”
The problem lies with early translations. These made without an understanding of the general framework of God’s reality, and the general difficulty of humanity to except God’s right to determine ahead of “time” a final outcome of the question of his sovereignty, even though it is based on mankind’s actions, his inclination, not God’s.
In conclusion we must realize that this is a time of immediate life and death for mankind, not a time to wait for a second chance. Mankind’s second chance is here and now.
(Matthew 7:12-14) . . .“All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean. 13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Looking at the age of Noah who can really fathom the statement in Matthew 7:14 “few”.
(Philippians 3:11) 11 [to see] if I may by any means…. (I might take part in the out resurrection at the Twinkling.)
The longer version. I believe that given the depth of your considerations Peter you must have by now reached the outer limits of the doctrine you associate with. Reason leads us to the limit of reasons given in the doctrine of the provisions being used by God. This is to set us free from the world. This is no small event in it’s self. But is why the warning was given “do not forsake the gathering together”. Frustration with those traveling at say a slower pace, can be. But lets hope we don’t hold our God given awareness’s against our brothers, though they be drinking milk, eating vegetables, or chewing on their first meat.
Seems he longer version won’t post as a whole so I’ll try it in parts.
Here is the in brief the reasons for the misunderstanding of the process of standing before God, the resurrection event, and it’s out, come, or not, reward.
(Philippians 3:10-11) 10 so as to know him and the power of his resurrection and a sharing in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.
The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead. [Literally, the out-resurrection of the dead (ones)].”
The problem lies with early translations made without an understanding of the general framework of God’s reality, and the general difficulty of humanity to except God’s right to determine a final outcome of the question of his sovereignty, even though it is based on mankind’s actions, not God’s.
Here is a general consideration of the process of Resurrection and its results.
A note: There is a general misunderstanding within those who go by the name of Christian a term not from the congregation of God but from the world of Satan. To be accurate there are several, but we’ll only mention this one, of the use of upper lower case spelling, as it will help keep things straight and clear UP the framework of God’s reality. This misconception is that there is a (S)avior that is Jesus. The misconception is not that Jesus is “our” (s)avior, thus the lower case (s) is used. He is not “the (S)avior”. When you realize there is only one Savior, capitalized, you begin to straighten out the use of capitals to designate authority, and its’ application. God is our Savior, King, Lord, Redeemer, Ransomer, and so on. Jesus is our savior, king, lord, deliverer of ransom price for God. You will see that I apply this as I go along in the consideration of Resurrection.
“YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Yahweh, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Yahweh, and besides me there is no (S)avior.”
This scripture is probably the most important awareness shared by God so far. The proof of free will, I leave you to ponder.
Two resurrections and two resurrection results, there are two accepted resurrections: a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. The problem lies in the mistranslation of the words relating to resurrection, meant to be out, not first. This will be explained as we go along.
The Greek word a•na′sta•sis literally means “raising up; standing up.” It is used frequently in the Christian Greek Scriptures with reference to the resurrection of the dead. The Hebrew Scriptures at Hosea 13:14, quoted by the apostle Paul (1Co 15:54, 55), speak of the abolition of death and the rendering powerless of Sheol (Heb., sheʼohl′; Gr., hai′des). Sheʼohl′ is rendered in various versions as “grave” and “pit”
But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality,( this is a reference to the event Twinkly) then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
The dead are spoken of as going there. (Ge 37:35; 1Ki 2:6; Ec 9:10). Its usage in the Scriptures, along with the usage of its Greek equivalent hai′des in the Christian Greek Scriptures, shows that it refers, not to an individual grave, but to the common grave of mankind, gravedom (Eze 32:21-32; Re 20:13; see HADES; SHEOL). To render Sheol powerless would mean to loosen its hold on those in it, which would imply the emptying of gravedom. This, of course, would require a resurrection, a raising up from the lifeless condition of death or out of the grave for those there who are alive to God. The resurrection to judgment of those left in the grave but now put under the authority of Jesus, as they await the coming destruction.
Through Jesus Christ. The foregoing shows that the teaching of resurrection appears in the Hebrew Scriptures. Nevertheless, it remained for Jesus Christ to “shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news.” (2Ti 1:100)
Part 2
6 For this very cause I remind you to stir up like a fire the gift of God which is in you through the laying of my hands upon you 9(spirit of adoption).7 For God gave us not a spirit of cowardice, but that of power and of love and of soundness of mind. 8 Therefore do not become ashamed of the witness about our lord, neither of me a prisoner for his sake, but take your part in suffering evil for the good news according to the power of God. 9 He (God) saved us and called us with a holy calling, not by reason of our works, but by reason of his own purpose and undeserved kindness. This was given us in connection with Christ Jesus before times long lasting, 10 but now it has been made clearly evident through the manifestation of our savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death but has shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher.
Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (Joh 14:6). Just how everlasting life would come, and more than that, incorruption for some, was brought to light through the good news about Jesus Christ. The apostle affirms that the resurrection is a sure hope, arguing: “Now if Christ is being preached that he has been raised up from the dead, how is it some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. Moreover, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God that he raised up the Christ, but whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. . . . Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you are yet in your sins. . . . However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man.”—1Co 15:12-21.
One other aspect of the above scripture is it shows how Christ’s resurrection applies , in relating to the “true Jew” and those left in sin in the “Nation of Israel” who did not hear and follow Jesus.
Christ himself when on earth performed resurrections. (Lu 7:11-15; 8:49-56; Joh 11:38-44) Only through Jesus Christ can resurrection, with everlasting life thereafter, be possible.—Joh 5:26.
A Sure Purpose of God. Jesus Christ pointed out to the Sadducees, a sect that did not believe in resurrection, that the writings of Moses in the Hebrew Scriptures, which they possessed and claimed to believe, prove there is a resurrection; Jesus reasoned that when Yahweh said He was “the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob” (who were actually dead), he counted those men as alive because of the resurrection that He, “the God, not of the dead, but of the living,” purposed to give them. God, because of His power, “makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were.” Paul includes this fact when speaking of Abraham’s faith.—Mt 22:23, 31-33; Ro 4:17.
How the Need for Resurrection Arose. In the beginning, a resurrection was not necessary. It was not a part of God’s original purpose for mankind because death was not the natural, purposed thing for humans. Rather, God indicated that He purposed the earth to be full of living humans, not a deteriorating, dying race. His work was perfect, hence without flaw, imperfection, or sickness. (De 32:4) Yahweh blessed the first human pair, telling them to multiply and fill the earth (Ge 1:28). Such blessing certainly did not include sickness and death. God set no limited life span for man, but He told Adam that disobedience is what would cause death. This implies that man would otherwise live forever. Disobedience would incur God’s disfavor and remove His blessing, bringing a curse.—Ge 2:17; 3:17-19.
Consequently, death was introduced into the human race by the transgression of Adam (Ro 5:12). Because of their father’s sinfulness and resultant imperfection, Adam’s offspring could not get a heritage of everlasting life from Him; in fact, not even a hope of living forever. This information is why understanding the Adoption process with its “token” of adoptive spirit, with its inherent increased mental capacity, is so important, culminating in the full inheritance at the “Twinkling.
Because of this the ability from the full inheritance of active force or adoptive spirit, the “Great Cloud of witnesses” “see” Jesus returning “in the Clouds”, to a full awareness in this Cloud of witness’s as they no longer “see” in a hazy outline. “Neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit,” said Jesus. (Mt 7:17, 18; Job 14:1, 2) The resurrection was brought in, or added, to overcome this disability for those of Adam’s children who would desire to be obedient to God.
Part 3
Purpose of the Resurrection. The resurrection shows forth not only Yahweh’s unlimited power and wisdom but also His love and His mercy and vindicates Him as the Preserver of those alive, who serve Him (1Sa 2:6). Having resurrection power, He can go to the extent of showing that His servants will be faithful to Him to their very death. He can answer Satan’s accusation that asserted that “skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul.” (Job 2:4) Yahweh can let Satan go the full limit, even to killing some in a vain effort to support his false accusations (Mt 24:9; Re 2:10; 6:11). The fact that Yahweh’s servants are willing to give up life (existence) itself in His service proves their service is, not for selfish considerations, but out of love (Re 12:11). It also proves that they acknowledge Him as the Almighty, the Universal Sovereign, and the God of love, who is able to resurrect them. It proves they render exclusive devotion to Yahweh for His wonderful qualities and not for selfish material reasons. (Consider some of the exclamations of His servants, as recorded at Ro 11:33-36; Re 4:11; 7:12.) The resurrection also is a means by which Yahweh Sees that His purpose toward the earth, as stated to Adam, is carried out.—Ge 1:28.
Essential to man’s happiness. The resurrection of the dead, an undeserved kindness on God’s part, is essential to mankind’s happiness and to the undoing of all the harm, suffering, and oppression that have come upon the human race. These things have befallen man as a result of his imperfection and sickness, the wars he has waged, the murders committed, and the inhumanities practiced by wicked people at the instance of Satan the Devil. We cannot be completely happy if we do not believe in a resurrection. The apostle Paul expressed the feeling in these words: “If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.”—1Co 15:19.
How Early Was Resurrection Hope Given? After Adam had sinned and had brought death upon himself and thereby introduced death for those who would be his posterity, God, in addressing the serpent, said: “And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”—Ge 3:15.
One originally causing death to be removed. Jesus said to the religious Jews who opposed him: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (Joh 8:44) This is evidence that it was the Devil who spoke through the instrumentality of the serpent, and that this one was a manslayer from the beginning of his lying, devilish course. In the vision that Christ later gave to John, he revealed that Satan the Devil is also called “the original serpent” (Re 12:9). Satan got his hold on mankind, gaining influence over Adam’s children, by inducing their father Adam to rebel against God. So in the first prophecy of Genesis 3:15, Yahweh gave hope that this Serpent would be put out of the way (Compare Ro 16:20). Not only is Satan’s head to be crushed but also all of his works are to be broken up, destroyed, or undone (1Jo 3:8; NW, KJ, AT). The fulfillment of this prophecy would of necessity require the undoing of the death introduced by Adam, including bringing back by a resurrection those of Adam’s offspring who go into Sheol (Hades) as a result of sin, but that exercise faith in Jesus for forgiveness of their personal sin.—1Co 15:26.
Hope of freedom entails resurrection. The apostle Paul describes the situation that God permitted to exist following man’s fall into sin and His end purpose in doing so: “For the creation was subjected to futility [being born in sin and with death facing all], not by its own will [the children of Adam were brought into the world facing this situation, though they themselves had no control over what Adam had done, and by no choice of their own] but through him [God, in his wisdom] that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God (Ro 8:20, 21; Ps 51:5)
(Psalm 51:5) . . .Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, And in sin my mother conceived me.
We are born under the headship of Adam and his error. Then in our turn we, our mother, have sinned and through this no hope of an out-resurrection.
In order to experience the fulfillment of this hope of glorious freedom, those who have died would have to have a resurrection; they would have to be freed from, death, and the grave. Thus, by his promise of the “seed” that would crush the serpent’s head, God set a marvelous hope before mankind.
Abraham’s basis for faith. The evidence in the Bible record reveals that when Abraham attempted to offer up his son Isaac he had faith in God’s ability and purpose to raise the dead. And as stated at Hebrews 11:17-19, he did receive Isaac back from the dead “in an illustrative way.” (Ge 22:1-3, 10-13) Abraham had a basis for faith in a resurrection because of God’s promise of the “seed.” (Ge 3:15) Also, he and Sarah had already experienced something comparable to a resurrection in the revitalizing of their reproductive powers. (Ge 18:9-11; 21:1, 2, 12; Ro 4:19-21) Job expressed similar faith, saying, in his intense suffering: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me, . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me! If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? . . . You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.”—Job 14:13-15.
Resurrections before ransom was given. Resurrections were performed by or through the prophets Elijah and Elisha. (1Ki 17:17-24; 2Ki 4:32-37; 13:20, 21) However, these resurrected persons died again, as did those resurrected by Jesus when he was on earth as well as those resurrected by the apostles. This reveals that resurrection is not to everlasting life in every case before the ransom price was paid.
Because of having been resurrected by his friend Jesus, Lazarus was likely alive Pentecost 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out and the first ones of the heavenly calling/upward call, all those who call on the name of God and his son Jesus, (Heb 3:1) were anointed and spirit begotten (received adoptive spirit. (Ac 2:1-4, 33, 38) Lazarus’ resurrection was similar to those performed by Elijah and Elisha. It opened up to Lazarus the opportunity of receiving a resurrection like Christ’s, in the Twinkly. What a remarkable act of love on Jesus’ part! And Gift of power from his Father to ease Jesus’ pain of existence without his friend—Joh 11:38-44.
“A better resurrection.”
The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)].”
The earlier/first/ better/literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones).
There were those faithful persons of old times of whom Paul speaks: “Women received their dead by resurrection; but other men were tortured because they would not accept release by some ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection.” Pay attention here to the translation, “Better”. (Heb 11:35)
(Philippians 3:10-11) . . ., 11 [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier (out)resurrection from the dead. .
Revelation 20:5, 6 refers to the resurrection, “the first resurrection”, those belonging to Christ.
The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)].”
(Revelation 20:5-6) . . .. This is the out- resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the out- resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, and from these members of humanity, will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
We know that there is to be only Two Resurrections, the “first” the“Out”-resurrection, for Jesus as the first of this first resurrection followed by the rest at the Twinkling and then the rest of the dead in the graves never come to life during the thousand years. This is a recorded result that there is no other “way” to life other than Yahweh’s, as the final result of the Question.
These men exhibited faith in the resurrection hope, knowing that life at that time was not the all-important thing. The resurrection they and others will have through Christ comes after his resurrection and appearance in heaven before his Father with the value of God’s ransom sacrifice delivered by Jesus. At that time God purchased the life right of the human race, becoming the “Eternal Father.” (Heb 9:11, 12, 24; Isa 9:6) He is “a life-giving spirit.”
(Hebrews 9:11-12) 11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, (made by God through the resurrection of Jesus)12 he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us].
(Hebrews 9:24) 24 For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.
This is the way it should read. (Isaiah 9:6) . . .For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. His name will be called wonderful Counselor, mighty god, the Eternal Father’s, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called wonderful Counselor, mighty god, Eternal Father’s, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon God’s Kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Yahweh of armies will do this.
Remember God’s Kingdom is to be put back in order by Jesus’ kingdom, and when this is accomplished turned back, to be again God’s Kindgom.( The very zeal of Yahweh of armies will do this. )
He has “the keys of death and of Hades [Sheol].” (Re 1:18) With the authority now to give everlasting life, at God’s due time he performs “a better or “out” resurrection,” since those experiencing it can live forever; none of such unavoidably need to die again. If obedient, they will continue living.
Jesus now has the keys as the “door keeper) (1Co 15:45) He has “the keys of death and of Hades [Sheol].”
Part 4
(Re 1:18) and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha′des
With the authority given, now to give everlasting life, at God’s due time he performs “a better, out-resurrection,” since those experiencing it can live forever; none of such unavoidably need to die again. If obedient, they will continue living.
Heavenly Resurrection?. Jesus Christ is called “the firstborn from the dead.” (Col 1:18) He was the first ever to be resurrected to everlasting life. His resurrection was to earth, under the promise to Abraham to “inherit the earth”
(1Pe 3:18) Moreover, he was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth, when called by his Father to ascend to heaven. He was granted immortality and incorruption in the flesh, and was made “higher than the heavens,” second only to Yahweh God in the universe, when called to ascend, not when resurrected. (Heb 7:26; 1Ti 6:14-16; Php 2:9-11; Ac 2:34; 1Co 15:27) His resurrection was performed by Yahweh God himself.—Ac 3:15; 5:30; Ro 4:24; 10:9.
However, for 40 days after his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples on different occasions in various fleshly bodies, just as angels had appeared to men of ancient times. Like those angels, he had the power to construct and to disintegrate those fleshly bodies at will, for the purpose of proving visibly that he had been resurrected. (Mt 28:8-10, 16-20; Lu 24:13-32, 36-43; Joh 20:14-29; Ge 18:1, 2; 19:1; Jos 5:13-15; Jg 6:11, 12; 13:3, 13) This ability either given as a special gift to show his resurrection as the son of God, or we might speculate an ability of Mankind necessary to have control over the living things of the earth originally. His many appearances, and particularly his manifesting himself to more than 500 persons at one time, provide strong testimony to the truth of his resurrection. (1Co 15:3-8) His resurrection, so well attested, furnishes “a guarantee to all men” the hope of “THE” resurrection. regarding the certainty of a future day of reckoning or judgment.—Ac 17:31.
Resurrection of Christ’s “brothers.” Those who are “called and chosen and faithful,” Christ’s footstep followers, his “brothers,” who are spiritually begotten as “God’s children,” are promised a resurrection like his. (Re 17:14; Ro 6:5; 8:15, 16; Heb 2:11)
(Romans 8:14-17) . . .For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. 15 For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.
This scripture is very important because it points out that the spirit of adoption the “token” is what allows us to be identified as God’s children both male and female. The UP-ward call, the path that Jesus pursued and revealed to us is not one taken only by our servants the 144,000 only, or we should say brothers, with the privilege of service to us for God.
The apostle Peter writes to fellow Christians: “Blessed be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”—1Pe 1:3, 4. This citizenship had to be reserved until Jesus took over the dwelling place of earth and was established as his (k)ingship over earth. All have knowledge and so are spiritually begotten, or born again, into the adoption process as “son’s of God”.
Peter also describes the hope such ones possess as “precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become sharers in divine nature.” (2Pe 1:4) They must undergo a change of nature, giving up human nature to obtain “divine” nature, thus sharing with Christ in his glory. This achieved in the Twinkling. They must die a death like Christ’s—maintaining—and then they receive immortal, incorruptible bodies like Christ’s by a resurrection. (Ro 6:3-5; 1Co 15:50-57; 2Co 5:1-3) The apostle Paul explains that it is not the body that is resurrected, but rather, he likens their experience to the planting and sprouting of a seed, in that “God gives it a body just as it has pleased him.” (1Co 15:35-40) It is the soul, the person, that is resurrected, with a body to suit the environment into which God resurrects him.
(2 Corinthians 5:1-5) 5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens(the house of God) 2 For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, 3 so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked. 4 In fact, we who are in this tent (temporary dwelling)groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal (dead in trespass)may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit.
Strangely enough the witness’s in the Insight on the Scriptures, gives an accurate explanation of why it is necessary that the spirit of Jesus is preserved and then resurrected as the “only way the person resurrected could be the same person in identity that was transferred to earth to be born as a man”
) If you’ve been a Witness it’s important to see that nowhere in the Bible has a heavenly place to exist been promised to mankind. The “crown of glory” is what we receive as declared righteous. (2Ti 4:8) When Christ’s “presence” takes place, there are some of his spiritual brothers yet alive on earth. Those of their number who have died are given first attention by a resurrection. (Re 19:9) This is explained at 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16: “For this is what we tell you by Yahweh’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” They rise first, the out-resurrection, to be enlightened along with the rest alive at the time (the Twinkling).
Paul then adds: “Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” The new “air is a consideration of the affect of the increased mental capacity given by the completion of the full inheritance of adoptive spirit received. Jesus becomes the new “god” of the air or mental influence over mankind, replacing the old “god” of the air, Satan. All awareness is raised to a “heavenly” oneness with Jesus allowing all present to “see” Jesus, truly for the first time, not in a hazy outline anymore. (1Th 4:17)
First resurrection. Revelation 20:5, 6 refers to the out-resurrection of those who belong to Christ as “the out- resurrection.” The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)].” (Php 3:11, NW, Ro, Int) On the expression Paul uses here, Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1931, Vol. IV, p. 454) says: “Apparently Paul is thinking here only of the resurrection of believers out from the dead and so double ex [out] (ten exanastasin ten ek nekron). Paul is not denying a general resurrection by this language, but emphasizing that of believers.” Charles Ellicott’s Commentaries (1865, Vol. II, p. 87) remarks on Philippians 3:11: “‘The resurrection from the dead;’ i.e., as the context suggests, the first or out resurrection (Rev. xx. 5), when, at the Lord’s coming the dead in Him shall rise first (1 Thessalon. iv. 16), and the quick be caught up to meet Him in the clouds. In the clouds because there will still be those living having a hazy outline, or in other words in a cloud.(1 Thess. iv. 17); compare Luke xx. 35. The first resurrection will include only true believers, and will apparently precede the second, that of non-believers and disbelievers, in point of time . . . Any reference here to a merely ethical resurrection (Cocceius) is wholly out of the question.” One of the basic meanings of the word e•xa•na′sta•sis is getting up from bed in the morning; thus it can well represent a resurrection occurring early, otherwise called “the first resurrection.” Rotherham’s translation of Philippians 3:11 reads: “If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection which is from among the dead.” So you can see that only if you read it as out-resurrection can you begin to understand that the unrighteous resurrection is not a return to life. The general framework of reality really has no room for the consideration that the unrighteous receive the return to the living. The receiving of life or return to consciousness is not a mandatory part of the resurrection process.
Earthly Resurrection. While Jesus was hanging on a stake, one of the evildoers alongside him, observing that Jesus was not deserving of punishment, requested: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.” Jesus replied: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” (Lu 23:42, 43) In effect, Jesus said: ‘On this dark day, when my claim to a kingdom is to outward appearances highly unlikely, you express faith. Indeed, when I do get into my kingdom, I will remember you.’ (See PARADISE.) This would require a resurrection for the evildoer. Obviously this man found himself in an unusual moment and seized on the importance of it. when he requested of Jesus to be remembered. It is important to remember, “no man is fit for life” it is a free gift, well almost you must act on your faith. This man was not a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. He had been engaged in wrongdoing, lawbreaking meriting the death penalty. But he excercised his understanding that Jesus was the son of God. How much awareness and action must mankind who is unfit for life have to be saved?(Lu 23:40, 41).
“The righteous and the unrighteous.” The apostle Paul said to a group of Jews who also entertained the hope of a resurrection that “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Ac 24:15.
The Bible makes it plain who are “the righteous.” First of all, those who are to receive a out- resurrection are declared righteous.—Ro 8:28-30.
Then the Bible calls faithful men of old such as Abraham righteous. (Ge 15:6; Jas 2:21) Many of these men are listed at Hebrews chapter 11, and of them the writer says: “And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us [spirit-begotten, anointed Christians like and those of the first resurrection], in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Heb 11:39, 40) So, the perfecting of them will take place in it’s right order. Had they received perfection the whole of reality after them would have been quite unimaginable. So it is obvious that the better things where for all of mankind’s best interests at the Twinkling.
Also, there are many “unrighteous” persons buried in Sheol (Hades), mankind’s common grave, or in “the sea,” or the sea of humanity.. The judgment of these along with “the righteous” resurrected on earth is described in Revelation 20:12, 13: “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds, those still dead in the grave. And the sea (of humanity) gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.” So unlike what general mankind has understood the “sea” to mean, the true meaning of this is easily understood when you perceive that those in the grave who did not call on God for a resurrection to life are just part of the sea of humanity, those in the common grave, along with the dead still in existence at Armageddon. Remaining until they are turned over to Jesus’ keeping. The sea of humanity is emptied from memorial tombs and turned over to Jesus as he takes over his kingdom, remaining in the grave, no longer memorial graves as the judgment of this system has happened and all hope of those who died apart from Christ have no hope of a return to life or living. These remain in the grave to await the coming destruction. The resurrection for them is not an out-resurrection. They stand before God, remaining judged. Their stand is what they chose during there life time, and is now before God.
Thank you for continuing to share your thoughts. I deeply value these exchanges, because they help us search the Scriptures together with sincerity and respect. I would like to gather my thoughts on the subject of the resurrection, since it lies at the very heart of God’s purpose for mankind.
The Bible teaches that resurrection is not simply a return to existence but a “standing again,” with distinctions according to God’s plan. Paul even speaks of the resurrection (Phil. 3:11), as a resurrection of special honor, different from the general raising of the dead. Jesus himself is the first example of this, being the “firstborn from the dead” (Col. 1:18), raised not merely to human life again but to incorruptible, immortal life.
In Philippians 3:11, most English Bibles translate it simply as “resurrection”, but Paul actually uses a slightly unusual form of the word:
The normal Greek word for resurrection is anástasis (ἀνάστασις), literally “a standing up.”
But in Philippians 3:11 Paul uses exanástasis (ἐξανάστασις), literally “a standing up out from among [the dead].”
That little prefix ex- (ἐξ) means “out from, out of.”
It suggests not merely resurrection in general, but a special resurrection out from among the dead ones—that is, the first resurrection of the saints to immortality, distinct from the general resurrection of the world later.
Why was resurrection introduced at all? Originally, it was not needed—Adam and Eve were created to live forever in obedience. But through sin, death entered, and all of Adam’s offspring inherited mortality (Rom. 5:12). Resurrection is therefore God’s loving remedy, restoring what was lost. Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25), and by his own resurrection he brought to light both life and incorruption (2 Tim. 1:10).
The purpose of resurrection is manifold. It vindicates God’s wisdom, power, and love, showing that His will cannot be thwarted by death. It also answers Satan’s slander that men serve God only for selfish gain (Job 2:4). In Job’s case, Satan charged that men only serve God for what they can get out of it, saying: “Skin for skin, yes, all that a man has will he give for his life” (Job 2:4). But when we see faithful men and women willing to suffer loss—even life itself—while holding to their integrity, it demonstrates that devotion to God is not merely for selfish gain.
Here is where the resurrection hope comes in: those who lay down their lives in loyalty to God do not do so in vain, for He has promised to restore life in His due time (John 5:28–29; Acts 24:15). Thus the resurrection is not only an expression of divine mercy, but also a foundation for proving that true service springs from love and trust in God’s character, not from present rewards.
The faithful who lay down their lives for God demonstrate their loyalty, knowing He can restore them. Thus resurrection is not an afterthought, but a key part of God’s plan to undo Adam’s curse and destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).
We see a distinction in resurrection. Jesus’ faithful disciples, begotten by the spirit and adopted as God’s children, are promised a share in his own resurrection to incorruptible life (Rom. 8:14–17). This “first resurrection” is to heavenly life, and Paul explains that such ones are “changed” in a moment, receiving a body suited to their new nature (1 Cor. 15:35–54). Revelation calls them “blessed and holy” because over them the second death has no power (Rev. 20:6).
Yet the promise is not limited to this class. The Scriptures affirm that “there shall be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous” (Acts 24:15). Jesus assured the repentant wrongdoer beside him that he would be remembered in Paradise (Luke 23:43)—a clear promise of an earthly resurrection. The faithful men of old, such as Abraham, Job, and David, await this resurrection, when they will stand again on earth under Christ’s Kingdom rule (Heb. 11:39-40). The unrighteous, too, will be brought forth, not because they earned life, but that they might stand before God’s judgment and receive opportunity under the clearer light of Christ’s reign (John 5:28-29; Rev. 20:12–13).
At present, Jesus holds the “keys of death and Hades” (Rev. 1:18). This means that the grave and death itself are no permanent prison. In due time, he will open those gates, calling forth all who sleep. The faithful few will already have been raised to immortal life; the great multitude of mankind will awaken to earthly life in a restored world, where they can learn righteousness under the loving oversight of Christ and his associates.
Thus, resurrection is not a vague hope but the central feature of God’s plan of salvation: first, for the faithful who suffer with Christ and share his glory; second, for the world of mankind, raised to life and given opportunity for everlasting blessing upon the earth. In the end, every enemy, including death itself, will be destroyed, and the Kingdom will be delivered back to the Father, that He may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:22–28).
I share this in the spirit of hope and love, not to argue, but to strengthen our mutual faith in the One who has promised, “Behold, I make all things new” (Rev. 21:5).
As you’ve said there is an out-resurrecton. After that there is no mention of a resurrection leading to a return to existence. The Question is as the Bible states “ask once, for all time.” not twice. I’m not sure reading your last reply how you miss this point, emotional hope I expect. But there is only “one” hope of a resurrection to life, the earlier, Out-resurrection. you have my love brother.
Part 5
Time of the earthly resurrection. We note that this judgment is placed in the Bible in the account of events occurring during Christ’s Thousand Year Reign with his associate kings and priests. These, the apostle Paul said, “will judge the world.” (1Co 6:2) “The great and the small,” persons from all walks of life, will be there, to be judged impartially. They are “judged out of those things written in the scrolls” that will be opened then. This could not mean the record of their past lives nor a set of rules that judges them on the basis of their past lives. Those who remain Judged are in the grave so their record is already established. For since “the wages sin pays is death,” these who are forgiven in the old system, crossed from death to life being forgiven. (Ro 6:7, 23) Now they are resurrected that they might demonstrate their attitude toward God.. Accordingly, “the scrolls” evidently set forth the will and law of God for them during that Judgment Day, their faith and their obedience to these things being the basis for judgment and for writing their names indelibly, at last, into “the scroll of life.” In this “day” of Jesus, we remember God’s day as a thousand years we see the last possibility for mankind to explore, a large population of Perfected humanity which according to prophecy will largely stay true in faith to God, and remain unjudged. Will some fall, maybe, and those will enter into Jesus keeping as no one can be destroyed until the final answer at the end of the thousand years. We see that Satan will be released for a sort time as the final consideration of this populations faithfullness.
Resurrection to Life and to Judgment. Jesus gave the comforting assurance to mankind: “The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. . . . Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”—Joh 5:25-29. By now I would expect that it is an easy thing to see the difference in the out-resurrection and the resurrection of judgment. All rested in memorial graves because the questions of humanities possibilities had not been answered. But at Armageddon mankind in general has lost the ability to life longer. They have lost hope for a future, living.
A judgment of condemnation. In Jesus’ words here, the word “judgment” translates the Greek word kri′sis. According to Parkhurst, the meanings of this word in the Christian Greek Scriptures are as follows: “I. Judgment. . . . II. Judgment, justice. Mat. xxiii. 23. Comp. xii. 20. . . . III. Judgment of condemnation, condemnation, damnation. Mark iii. 29. John v. 24, 29. . . . IV. The cause or ground of condemnation or punishment. John iii. 19. V. A particular court of justice among the Jews, . . . Mat. v. 21, 22.”—A Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament, London, 1845, p. 342.
If Jesus, in speaking of judgment, meant a trial the result of which might be life, then there would be no contrast between this and the “resurrection of life.” Therefore, the context indicates that Jesus meant by “judgment” a condemnatory judgment.
“The dead” that heard Jesus speak on earth. In considering Jesus’ words, we note that when Jesus spoke, some of “the dead” were hearing his voice. Peter used similar language when he said: “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” (1Pe 4:6) This is so because those hearing Christ were ‘dead in trespasses and sins’ before hearing but would begin to ‘live’ spiritually because of faith in the good news.—Eph 2:1; compare Mt 8:22; 1Ti 5:6.
John 5:29 refers to end of judgment period.
(John 5:25-29) . . .“Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
We can clearly see in John 5:25-29 that the process of standing before God, or as it’s called the resurrection process, can lead to one of two results. Keeping straight, a person dead legally in this system, and someone who was dead in their trespass’s, but has crossed from death to life after excising their belief in Jesus, is essential to understanding who is living in a memorial tomb, and who is dead legally in a memorial tomb. This also allows us to keep straight how those in the tombs can “stand” before God.
But a very important thing to notice, something that helps to determine the time feature of Jesus’ words concerning the ‘resurrection of life and the resurrection of judgment,’ is what he said earlier in the same context, in speaking of those living then who were spiritually dead: “The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed [literally, word for word, “the (ones) having heard”] will live.” (Joh 5:25, Int) This indicates that he was not speaking merely of someone audibly hearing his voice but, rather, of the ones “having heard,” namely, those who, after hearing, accept as true what they hear. The terms “hear” and “listen” are used very frequently in the Bible with the meaning of “give heed” or “obey.” Those who prove to be obedient will live. (Compare the use of the same Greek term [a•kou′o], “hear or listen,” at Joh 6:60; 8:43, 47; 10:3, 27.) They are judged, not on what they did before hearing his voice, but on what they do after hearing it. As they remain un-judged in this system it is plain this takes place in the thousand years of Christ’s reign based on their actions there. The second chance, of some reasoning’s. This however leaves those who are judged in this system with a resurrection result of remaining with their stand of being judged already. They remain in the grave during the thousand years.
Jesus was therefore evidently taking a similar position in time in speaking of “those who did good things” and “those who practiced vile things,” namely, a position at the end of the period of judgment, as looking back in retrospect or in review of the actions of these resurrected persons after they had opportunity to obey or disobey the “things written in the scrolls.” Only at the end of the judgment period would it be demonstrated who had done good or bad. Again we see that no absolute conclusions are able to be stated until the answering of the question at the end of the thousand years. The outcome to “those who did good things” (according to “those things written in the scrolls”) would be the reward of life; to “those who practiced vile things,” a judgment of condemnation. The resurrection would have turned out to be either to life or to remain judged in condemnation. So here is in many other considerations you need to keep track of the fact that none can be destroyed, and no absolute statement is possible as outcome until the question of God’s sovereignty is answered by the end of the thousand years.
The practice of stating things as viewed from the standpoint of the outcome, or stating them as already accomplished, considering them in retrospect, is common in the Bible. Remembering that this view in being held by those believing in God and his Son. For God is “the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done.” (Isa 46:10) Jude adopts this same viewpoint when he speaks of corrupt men who slipped into the congregation, saying of them: “Too bad for them, because they have gone in the path of Cain, and have rushed into the erroneous course of Balaam for reward, and have perished [literally, they destroyed themselves] in the rebellious talk of Korah!” (Jude 11) Some of the prophecies use similar language.—Compare Isa 40:1, 2; 46:1; Jer 48:1-4.
Consequently the viewpoint taken at John 5:29 is not identical with that at Acts 24:15 in which Paul speaks of the resurrection of “the righteous and the unrighteous.” Paul is plainly referring to those who have had a righteous or unrighteous standing before God during this life, and who will be resurrected. They are “those in the memorial tombs until the Twinkling.”
MEMORIAL TOMB
A burial place in which the remains of a deceased person were placed with the hope that he would be remembered, especially by God.
Concerning the Greek words used to refer to a burial place or tomb, A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament (1932, Vol. V, p. 87) states: “Taphos (grave) presents the notion of burial (thapto, to bury) as in Matt. 23:27, mnemeion (from mnaomai, mimnesko, to remind) is a memorial (sepulchre as a monument).” Related to mne•mei′on is the word mne′ma, which appears to have a corresponding meaning, referring also to “a memorial or record of a thing or a dead person, then a sepulchral monument, and hence a tomb.”—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 2, p. 173.
Remembrance by God. In view of the underlying thought of remembrance associated with mne•mei′on, the use of this word (rather than ta′phos) at John 5:28 with regard to the resurrection of “all those in the memorial tombs” seems particularly appropriate and contrasts sharply with the thought of complete repudiation and effacement from all memory as represented by Gehenna. (Mt 10:28; 23:33; Mr 9:43) The importance attached to burial by the Hebrews is indicative of their concern that they be remembered, primarily by Yahweh, God in whom they had faith as “the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Heb 11:1, 2, 6) Inscriptions of the tombs of Israelite origin are very rare and, when found, often consist of only the name. The outstanding kings of Judah left no magnificent monuments with their praises and exploits engraved thereon, as did the kings of other nations. Thus it seems evident that the concern of faithful men of ancient times was that their name be in the “book of remembrance” described at Malachi 3:16.—Compare Ec 7:1; The basic idea of remembrance involved in the original Greek words for “tomb” or “memorial tomb” also gives added meaning to the plea of the thief impaled alongside Jesus to “remember me when you get into your kingdom.”—Lu 23:42.
At John 5:29, Jesus views such persons after their coming out of the memorial tombs and after they, by their course of action during the reign of Jesus Christ and have proved themselves either obedient, with eternal “life” as their reward, or disobedient, and so deserving “judgment [condemnation]” from God along with those remaining under condemnation in the grave.
Soul Recovered From Sheol. King David of Israel wrote: “I foresaw the Lord always before my face; for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved . . . moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Sheol], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (Ps 15:8-10, LXX, Bagster [16:8-11, NW]) On the day of Pentecost, 33 C.E., the apostle Peter applied this psalm to Jesus Christ, in declaring to the Jews the truth of Christ’s resurrection. (Ac 2:25-31) The Scriptures, both the Hebrew and the Greek, therefore show that it was the “soul” of Jesus Christ that was resurrected. Jesus Christ was ‘put to death in the flesh, but made alive receiving the spirit of Adoption.’ (1Pe 3:18) “Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom,” said the apostle Paul.
Most do not understand the significance of the “Token” of adoptive spirit that makes you cross from death to life. Jesus who came under the law of condemnation had too as his brothers after him cross from death to life. Jesus as an adult, being “dead” under his adoptive fathers headship had to take a stand when he reached the age of responsibility. The life of Jesus as a spiritually begotten man, or adopted man was what made him a life giving spirit, something Adam could no longer give even though still living/ in existence. Many people want to talk of the spirit body although we know nothing of the nature of the body that God and the angels exist in. We can clearly see that a spiritual person is recognized by God by that adoptive spirit they acquired by exercising faith in his son.
Throughout the Scriptures it is evident that there is no “immaterial soul” separate and distinct from the body that continues to have existence, the soul only exists in the grave as a life force. The soul becomes unconscious when the body dies. Even of Jesus Christ it is written that “he poured out his soul to the very death.” His soul was in Sheol the place to be preserved until his resurrection. He had no existence as a soul or person during that time. (Isa 53:12; Ac 2:27; compare Eze 18:4) Consequently, in the resurrection there is joining again of soul and body. However, whether spirit or earthly, the individual must have a body or organism, to have consciousness. To be again a person, one who has died would have to have a body, either a physical or a spirit body. The Bible says: “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.”—1Co 15:44. This is a very complex consideration in that the body of a man that has crossed from death to life has become a spiritual body. The image mentioned is a reference to the, becoming one with Jesus and God as we are made over. It is the spirit of mankind who crossed from death to life that designates a being to God as living, “ sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption”. In this statement we see how we are kept from seeing corruption as a result in the resurrection. We also see why the dead in existence remain dead, if they never cross from death to life.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-57) 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. 48 As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one. 50 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Those who listen to Christ, are freed from law.
But is the old body reassembled in the resurrection? or is it precise replica of the former body, made exactly as it was when the person died? The Scriptures answer in the negative when they deal with the resurrection of Christ’s anointed brothers to life: “Nevertheless, someone will say: ‘How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?’ You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies; and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but a bare grain, it may be, of wheat or any one of the rest; but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body.”—1Co 15:35-38.
A beautiful picture of the planting of the garden of God, as we are the field under cultivation. This also explains Jesus resurrection to earth In one form and the form given when called to ascend to heaven.
what body does he give them? It could not be the same body, of exactly the same atoms. If a man dies and is buried, by process of decay his body is reconverted into organic chemicals that are absorbed by vegetation. Neither is the resurrected body necessarily one constructed to be the exact duplicate of the body at the moment of death. The Bible points the body given in the out resurrection will be fresher than youth.
‘Passing Over From Death to Life.’ Jesus spoke of those who ‘have everlasting life’ because they hear his words with faith and obedience and then believe on the Father who sent him. He said about each one of such: “He does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life. Most truly I say to you, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.”—Joh 5:24, 25.
Those who have ‘passed over from death to life now’ would not be those who had literally died and were in actual graves. At the time when Jesus spoke, all mankind were under the condemnation of death before God the Judge of all. So the ones Jesus referred to were evidently persons on earth who had been dead in a spiritual sense. Jesus must have referred to such spiritually dead ones when he said to the Jewish son who wanted to go home first to bury his father: “Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead.”—Mt 8:21, 22.
Those who become “footstep followers” with true belief were once among the spiritually dead people of the world. he apostle Paul reminded the congregation of this fact, saying: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world . . . But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved( those who did not call on Jesus in faith obviously are not included in this statement.)—and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.”—Eph 2:1, 2, 4-6.
Thus, because of their no longer walking in trespasses and sins against God, and because of their faith in Christ, Yahweh lifted his condemnation from them. He raised them up out of spiritual death and gave them hope of everlasting life. (1Pe 4:3-6) The apostle John describes this transfer from deadness in trespasses and sins to spiritual life in these words: “Do not marvel, brothers, that the world hates you. We know we have passed over from death to life, because we love the brothers.”—1Jo 3:13, 14.
An Undeserved Kindness of God. The provision of a resurrection for humankind is indeed an undeserved kindness of Yahweh God, for he was not obligated to provide a resurrection. Love for the world of mankind moved him to give his only-begotten Son so that millions, yes, even thousands of millions who have died without a real knowledge of God might have opportunity to know and love him, and so that those who love and serve him can have this hope and encouragement to faithful endurance, even as far as death. (Joh 3:16) The apostle Paul comforts fellow followers with the resurrection hope, writing to the congregation at Thessalonica about those of the congregation who had died and who had hope of a heavenly resurrection: “Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping in death; that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus God will bring with him.”—1Th 4:13, 14.
Ransom applied to all
Yahweh joyfully anticipates the resurrection. Yahweh and his Son must anticipate the full carrying out of that work with great joy. Jesus showed this willingness and desire when a leper entreated him: “‘If you just want to, you can make me clean.’ At that [Jesus] was moved with pity, and he stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him: ‘I want to. Be made clean.’ And immediately the leprosy vanished from him, and he became clean.” This touching incident demonstrating Christ’s loving-kindness for mankind was recorded by three of the Gospel writers. (Mr 1:40-42; Mt 8:2, 3; Lu 5:12, 13) And of Yahweh’s love and willingness to help mankind, we call again to mind the words of faithful Job: “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? . . . You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.”—Job 14:14, 15.
Some Not Resurrected to life. While it is true that Christ’s ransom sacrifice was given for mankind in general, Jesus indicated that its actual application nevertheless would be limited when he said: “Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) Yahweh God has the right to refuse to accept a ransom for anyone he deems unworthy. Christ’s ransom covers resulting condition an individual has because of being a child of sinful Adam, but a person can add by his own deliberate, willful course of sin, and he can thus die for such sin that is beyond coverage by the ransom.
Sin against the holy spirit. Jesus Christ said that one who sinned against the holy spirit would not be forgiven in the present system of things nor in that to come. (Mt 12:31, 32) A person whom God judged as having sinned against the holy spirit in the present system of things, would never be forgiven, again of his new sin against the spirit because the adoptive spirit that allowed him to cross from death to life would be taken and he could find no “way” that wourld lead again to a resurrection to life. This refers to one that after crossing from death to life in his belief in Jesus, then forsaking that belief. Having forsaken the belief in Jesus there could be no savior to come. Jesus uttered judgment against Judas Iscariot in calling him “the son of destruction.”. The spirit of adoption gives increased mental capacity and starts the awareness that leads to oneness with Jesus and God. Having been enlightened should a man deny this path there is no longer any forgiveness possible as this speaks of complete lack of faith any longer and a mind in absolute darkness.
To his opposers, the Jewish religious leaders, Jesus said: “How are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna [a symbol of everlasting destruction]?” (Mt 23:33;.) His words indicate that these persons, if they did not take action to turn to God before their death, would have a final adverse judgment entered against them. If so, a resurrection returning them to life would no longer be possible. This would also appear to be true of “the man of lawlessness.”—2Th 2:3, 8;.
Paul speaks of those who have known the truth, have been partakers of holy spirit of adoption, and then have fallen away, as falling into a condition in which it is impossible “to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.” The ransom could no longer help them; hence they would receive no resurrection to life, but remain judged. The apostle goes on to liken such ones to a field that produces only thorns and thistles and is therefore rejected and ends up being burned. This illustrates the future before them: complete annihilation in the lake of fire.—Heb 6:4-8.
Again, Paul says of those who “practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, [that] there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and there is a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.” He then illustrates: “Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? . . . It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” The judgment is more severe in that such ones are not merely killed and buried in Sheol, as were violators of the Law of Moses. These go into Gehenna, from which there is no resurrection to life.—Heb 10:26-31.
Peter writes to his brothers, pointing out that they, as “the house of God,” are under judgment, and he then quotes from Proverbs 11:31 (LXX) warning them of the danger of disobedience. He here implies that their present judgment could end with a judgment of everlasting destruction for them, just as Paul had written.—1Pe 4:17, 18.
The apostle Paul also tells of some who will “undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones.” (2Th 1:9, 10) These would therefore not survive into the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, and since their destruction is “everlasting,” they would receive no resurrection to life, just resurrection to condemnation.
In conclusion we must realize that this is a time of immediate life and death for mankind, not a time to wait for a second chance. Mankind’s second chance is here and now.
(Matthew 7:12-14) . . .“All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean. 13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Looking at the age of Noah who can really fathom the statement in Matthew 7:14 “few”.
(Philippians 3:11) 11 [to see] if I may by any means…. (I might take part in the out resurrection at the Twinkling.)
Thank you for your thoughtful response, brother. I can see your deep sincerity in searching out this matter, and I am glad we can continue to reason together on the Scriptures with love.
You are right that Paul uses the unusual word in Philippians 3:11, which our translations often render simply “resurrection,” but which in the Greek (ἐξανάστασις, exanástasis) literally means “out-resurrection”—a special resurrection “out from among the dead.” This unique word is never used elsewhere, and it points, as you’ve said, to a resurrection of special distinction. This is the “first resurrection” of the saints, to incorruption and immortality (1 Cor. 15:42–44, 50–54; Rev. 20:6).
But we must not conclude that this is the only resurrection. Paul clearly testified before Felix that “there shall be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous” (Acts 24:15). Jesus himself declared: “The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out” (John 5:28–29). Notice—all in the memorial tombs. This extends beyond the faithful few who share in the first resurrection.
Here, then, is the distinction:
• The “out-resurrection” (Phil. 3:11; Rev. 20:6) refers to the little flock, Christ’s faithful body members, raised to heavenly glory, over whom the second death has no power.
• The “general resurrection” (John 5:28–29; Acts 24:15) embraces the vast multitude of mankind, both righteous and unrighteous, raised to earthly life under Christ’s Millennial reign.
I understand your reference to the “one hope” (Eph. 4:4). This does indeed point to the heavenly call—the one hope of the Church, to be joined with Christ as his body in glory. That is the prize of the high calling, distinct and precious. Yet it does not exclude God’s wider purpose, for through the glorified Church will flow the blessings of restitution to all mankind (Acts 3:21; Rom. 8:19–21). Thus the “one hope” belongs uniquely to the saints, but it secures also the earthly hope for the world, since their deliverance depends on the faithful class who will reign with Christ. Regarding the “one hope,” yes there is one Author of salvation, one ransom, one Kingdom, one ultimate destiny of life for the obedient—yet different orders and times in which this life is bestowed (1 Cor. 15:22–24).
In harmony with this, Revelation shows two stages: first the resurrection of the saints to reign with Christ (Rev. 20:4–6), and then, after the thousand years, the rest of mankind standing before the great white throne (Rev. 20:11–13). The “scrolls” opened in that day are not the records of past deeds, but new instructions of righteousness under the Kingdom—by which men will be judged worthy of everlasting life (Isa. 26:9; John 12:48).
I agree fully that the “second death” is final, without hope of resurrection (Rev. 20:14). But before that point, the resurrection promise is wide enough to embrace all who “sleep in the dust of the earth” (Dan. 12:2). Even the thief at Jesus’ side was promised remembrance in Paradise (Luke 23:43).
So, brother, while we rejoice in the special prize of the upward calling (Phil. 3:14), we also rejoice in the breadth of God’s mercy, that “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order” (1 Cor. 15:22–23).
With love in Christ and gratitude for your fellowship in these things,
I’d like to address several additional points you made more directly so that nothing is left unresolved.
First, you suggest that some remain “unconsciously judged” in the grave. Yet our Lord’s words are plain: “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth” (John 5:28–29). This includes both the just and the unjust, as Paul confirms in Acts 24:15. If some never rise, then these inspired testimonies would lose their force.
Second, you seem to view resurrection as limited to the faithful alone. But Scripture consistently speaks of a universal resurrection secured by the ransom. Romans 5:18 declares that Christ’s one righteous act brings “justification of life to all men.” This would be incomplete if vast multitudes remained forever in death.
Third, you raise an objection to resurrection as a time of testing. Yet the very word “judgment” (krisis) denotes a process of trial. Revelation 20:12–13 shows the dead being judged “according to their works” when the books are opened during the Kingdom, not before they even stand again. Thus the Millennial age will be the great day of probation for mankind, where each individual may walk the highway of holiness (Isa. 35:8–10).
Fourth, regarding Job 2:4, Satan charged that men serve God only from selfish motives. The general resurrection will furnish the conclusive answer. Under Kingdom blessings—without Satan’s deceptions, without present hardships—billions will then be tested to see whether they will choose righteousness out of love for God. Their faithfulness will fully vindicate Jehovah’s wisdom and character, disproving Satan’s slander universally.
Finally, on Philippians 3:11, the apostle’s phrase is not the ordinary word for resurrection (anastasis), but a strengthened form (exanastasis), literally “an out-resurrection from among the dead.” This indicates the special resurrection prize of the saints—the “better resurrection” of Hebrews 11:35—which Paul strove to attain. The general resurrection will come in due time, but this out-resurrection is the portion of Christ’s body, his joint-heirs.
In this way, the harmony of Scripture is maintained: one special hope for the Church, and through it, a general resurrection and opportunity of life for the world.
Peter the problem I believe you are having if that “hearing Jesus voice when he calls those out of the grave does not need those in the memorial tombs be conscious, we know they are dead, unconscious. Jesus voice of action, is just that.
Yes all come out of the memorial tomb some to life some to judgment. Those who receive judgment are now just left in a tomb the grave. “If the righteous are being saved with difficulties where will the unrightous make a showing” In the whole you gain or lose life in this system. You cross over or you don’t. It’s not sin brings death, but wait not really. Those who cross are alive to God, those who don’t remain dead, both in existence and as the exist in the grave.those who are raised in the Twinkly are God’s children. Evil doers are not among them in this system or the next. I give you credit for a worthy try to make a case of reason for your consideration, but now I say present your self, with your power of reason, a sacred service to God….
Thank you for your latest thoughts. A few points in reply:
1. On John 5:28–29.
You reason that Jesus is speaking only of the outcome, not the process. Yet the text says “all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice and come forth.” Resurrection itself is the coming forth. What follows—whether to life or to judgment—is the result of their standing trial. Revelation 20:12–13 confirms this: the dead are raised, the books are opened, and men are judged according to their works in that new day.
2. On “krisis.”
I agree with you that the word can mean condemnation. But often it points to the judicial process that leads to a verdict. In John 5:29, then, those who rise “to judgment” do so because they require testing under the Kingdom. Only after that testing do they either inherit life or face the second death.
3. On the idea of remaining judged in the grave.
You suggest some are never raised because their case is already closed. But Acts 24:15 promises a resurrection “of both the just and unjust.” If the unjust are never raised, then Paul’s testimony would not stand. The ransom price covered all in Adam (Rom. 5:18), and so all must be given opportunity to stand before Christ, except only the few who have committed the unpardonable sin (Matt. 12:32).
4. On the “one hope.”
You stress there is only one hope. Yes, the ONE hope for the followers of Christ is to join him as his body members in heaven. Indeed, there is only one basis of hope—the ransom. Yet Scripture distinguishes the Church’s heavenly calling, the “first resurrection” (Rev. 20:6), from the general resurrection of mankind (John 5:28; Acts 24:15). So there is one ransom, but two classes of those who benefit from it, each in their proper order (1 Cor. 15:23).
Those who stand before God, come from mankind’s common grave, up to the Twinkling these are memorial tombs because God remembers them as, forgiven of their sins throug Belief in Jesus and thus having received the token of adoptive spirit or dead in their sins, already judged. This separation is quite clear. Forgiven, out resurrection reward, judged already , nolonger to be remembered by God, turned over to Jesus as king to await in now just the grave for the coming destruction. There is no way around this hear Christ’s voice, can only be heard by those given ears by God in the first place,in life or death, but again standing and coming forth obviously does not take concourse.
I think we’ve taken this consideration about as far as we need too to be a fair exchange.
I’d close with this thought. The Bible is quite clear, only a Few find the bath to life. When we look at the many different attempts a logic in the world today, I’ve always taken as a given that the true path could only be held by a few. That path to life would not be among the larger group that is blinded and set on the broad path leading off into destruction.
So when you describe sinners, or more accurately those unforgiven of their sins coming into a system without sin. Populated with fully enlightened people no longer needing to be taught, which I admitt is a common thought among the larger part of those suggesting they are on the narrow path, does that not make you pause. It certainly did me some fifty years ago.
The followers of christ certainly did not beleive in the easy entry from God’s Kingdom on earth, into Jesus’ kingdom on earth would be available to those who did not call on the name of Jesus and his Father. Acts: 59, lord Jesus recieve my spirit. 2 cor.2:14 odor to life… 1Cor. 6:9 will not inherit, Roman 12:1, with your power of reason…
John 3:36 ,He that exercises faith in the son has everlasting life, he that disobey the son will not see life, But the wrath of God remains upon him.
2cor. 13:5 keep on testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are. Or do you recognize that Jesus Christ is in union with you? Unless you are disapproved.
No second chance. If and when this awareness arrives, I would welcome a relationship with you. You have my email. Fire pit cold beer, good conversation, a event in reality I’d enjoy.
Thank you again for your thoughtful response. I value the way you press these matters with earnest conviction. Allow me to clarify a few key points in reply.
1. On the unconscious state of the dead.
You are correct—those in the tombs are unconscious, as Scripture affirms (Eccl. 9:5, 10; Ps. 146:4). That is why Jesus’ voice is the active power in resurrection. The dead do not “hear” while asleep in death, but when he calls, they live again (John 11:43–44). Thus, “all in the tombs shall hear his voice and come forth” (John 5:28). The hearing is not while dead, but in the act of awakening.
2. On judgment being final before resurrection.
Here I must differ with your conclusion. If judgment were fully settled before resurrection, then Paul’s testimony in Acts 24:15 would not hold—there would be no need for a resurrection “of both the just and the unjust.” Yet he insists on this broader resurrection, not merely of the righteous few. Revelation 20:12–13 further describes the “books” being opened after resurrection, showing a process of trial and testing in the Kingdom. The ransom, given for Adam and his race (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 2:6), demands that all be given opportunity to stand before Christ, except only the few who sin willfully against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:32).
3. On the “twinkling” resurrection.
The “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” change (1 Cor. 15:52) applies to the Church class alone—the faithful overcomers who are “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb. 3:1). These, raised in the first resurrection, are indeed God’s children, immortal and beyond death (Rev. 20:6). But this does not exhaust God’s loving plan. The “rest of the dead” (Rev. 20:5) are raised later, during the thousand years, to a process of judgment and restoration under Christ’s reign.
4. On evil-doers in the Kingdom.
You say that evildoers are not among those raised. Yet the Scriptures show that even the unjust are brought forth—not to continue evil, but to face exposure, correction, and either reformation or destruction (Isa. 26:9; Acts 17:31). The Kingdom is not “easy entry,” as you note. It is the appointed day when Christ will “judge the world in righteousness.” Only those who accept that righteous government will live. Those who refuse shall be cut off in the “second death” (Acts 3:23; Rev. 20:15).
5. On the narrow way and the few.
Indeed, in this Gospel Age, only a little flock (Luke 12:32) walk the narrow way to glory and honor with Christ. That is the “high calling.” But God’s purpose is larger: through that little flock, blessing flows to “all the families of the earth” (Gen. 22:18; Gal. 3:29). The Kingdom age will not be an “easy way,” but a highway of holiness (Isa. 35:8), open for all mankind to walk if they will.
So, yes, only a few are chosen now. Yet in due time, all the blind eyes shall be opened, and all the deaf ears unstopped (Isa. 35:5). The ransom must reach its full fruitage, that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28).
Traveler – Let me more deeply answer the question, can both faithful Christians and all mankind be saved?
1 John 2:2: (Weymouth) He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10: …God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Especially denotes a special reward to faithful believers above and beyond the rest of mankind.
Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
This is after the “bride” (faithful Christians) is in heaven (Revelation 21:3-6). As earth’s future kings, priests and judges, the “bride of Christ” is inviting mankind to enter the righteous and peaceful kingdom on earth. More on this in later sections.
Romans 8:19-21: For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God…in hope; because the creation itself also (both faithful Christians—sons of God—and ALSO the rest of creation) will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Notice this passage is telling us the whole creation with hope (verse 20) has been eagerly waiting for the sons of God—the bride of Christ who with their bridegroom (Jesus) will bring to earth God’s righteous and peaceful kingdom and deliver the creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
1 Peter 2:12: having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
The day of visitation is in the future kingdom of God on earth when people will glorify God for the very acts of Christians which they had spoken against.
2 Thessalonians 1:10: when he (Jesus) comes, in that Day, to be glorified (future) in his saints and to be admired among all those who believe (future mankind—not his saints), because our (the Apostle Paul’s) testimony among you (early Christians) was believed—who are the future glorified saints.
His saints are faithful Christians. Those who believe refers to resurrected mankind who will admire Jesus in the future kingdom of God on earth.
Genesis 22:17-18: (KJV) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
● stars of the heaven (spiritual seed—body members of Christ)
● sand which is upon the sea shore (natural Israel, the nation, converted to Christ)
● notice there are two groups, two salvations, one Savior!
● thy seed (spiritual and natural—with Jesus as their head)
2 Corinthians 5:19: …God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Jesus has provided the opportunity for reconciliation for all mankind and has committed to us (faithful Christians) the word or preaching to explain the future reconciliation of mankind.
Acts 15:16-17: After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up (the nation of Israel restored); so that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles (the world of mankind in God’s kingdom) who are called by My name, says the LORD who does all these things.
The tabernacle of David is the nation of Israel fully restored to faith in Jesus their Messiah (Amos 9:11-15; Jeremiah 30:3; 31:28,31-34; Zechariah 12:10; Ezekiel 36:26,27; 39:28-29). The rest of mankind will seek after the Lord in His future kingdom on earth. Your kingdom come…ON EARTH (Matthew 6:10).
Romans 11:30-31: For as you were once disobedient to God (before becoming Christians) yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience (natural Israel), even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
This verse shows that disobedient Israel who rejected their Messiah will in the future obtain mercy (not eternal torment) from God. This will be at the time they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son (Zechariah 12:10 KJV).
All these verses combined are sufficient to prove that not only does God have a plan to save and reward faithful Christians, but he also has a merciful plan to save all mankind.
Two groups will be saved:
Faithful Christians now, and the world of mankind in God’s future kingdom on earth.
Disobedient Israel. Only those who followed Jesus were, Jews, sons of Israel, Israel. Yes Jes reconciled all mankind and gave them hope and an approach for forgiveness of the sins they internet commit after being reconciled as to the inherited sin of Adam. I beleive your losing sight of a few things in your reason the bride doesn’t arrive until the Twinkling, there is no provision for the bride or mankind to go to heaven the space God resides in. The only Jew. The only member of Israel, had to be mental offspring of Abraham as Jesus pointed out, not all who say the are Israel are. Hope for all does not translate into a stand before God as forgiven of personal sin for all. I beleive now that you can see the significance of the Twinkling, if you search the significance of God of the air, or God of influence, you see the difference between meeting Jesus in the air, the Great cloud of witnesses. The hazy outline and being raised to heaven in awareness a oneness with Jesus and God. The order of forgiveness and for what and who’s sin is key. Please ponder these. Thank you for your inspiring example of patient thoughtfulness.
Thank you again for your earnest observations. I appreciate the sincerity with which you ponder these deep things of God. Let me offer a few clarifications in response to the points you’ve raised:
1. On the Bride and the “Twinkling.”
You rightly note that the Bride is not complete until the “twinkling of an eye” change (1 Cor. 15:51–52). This is indeed the first resurrection of the Church—the faithful overcomers who share the heavenly calling (Rev. 20:6). But this does not mean there is no provision for the rest of mankind. Rather, the Bride, united with her Lord, becomes the very channel of blessing for the world. As Revelation 22:17 shows, after the Bride is complete, she joins the Spirit in saying, “Come… take of the water of life freely.”
2. On Israel and true sons of Abraham.
I agree—not all who are “of Israel” are Israel (Rom. 9:6–8). Jesus himself showed that being Abraham’s seed is not merely a matter of natural descent, but of faith. Still, the natural nation is not forever cast off. Paul assures us that “blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:25–26). Their restoration is part of the grand design: through them, blessing reaches “all the families of the earth” (Gen. 22:18). The Jews were tp be regathered to the land (Isa. 43:5-6 & Jer 30:3), never again to be removed (Amos 9:14) on the (millennial) day (Isa 11:11.)
3. On forgiveness and reconciliation.
You mention the order of forgiveness. It is important to distinguish between two aspects:
Faithful believers now, who by faith in the ransom, receive justification in advance and walk the narrow way.
The world of mankind, for whom reconciliation awaits the Kingdom. As Paul says, “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). The ransom for Adam (1 Tim. 2:6; Rom. 5:18) provides the legal basis for this. Forgiveness of inherited Adamic sin extends to all; personal sins will be dealt with under Christ’s Kingdom government—either blotted out through obedience (Acts 3:19–21) or ending in second death for the incorrigible.
4. On meeting the Lord “in the air.”
The “air” (1 Thess. 4:17) is indeed symbolic. It represents the spiritual realm of authority, not the literal heavens where God dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16). The Church joins Christ in this invisible sphere of rulership, and the “clouds” represent the great company of witnesses and accompanying troubles of earth’s present distress. But this meeting is not for the Bride alone; it marks the beginning of a new dominion where Christ and his Church reign to bless the nations (Dan. 7:27).
5. The hope for all mankind.
You caution that “hope for all” does not mean forgiveness of personal sins apart from repentance and reform. I fully agree. The beauty of God’s plan is that the Bride and her Lord will establish a Kingdom of righteousness where mankind will be taught, disciplined, and judged in righteousness (Isa. 26:9; Acts 17:31). Only those who willingly accept that righteous arrangement will live. The others, refusing mercy, will face destruction in the second death.
Thus, in harmony with the ransom, two salvations are revealed:
The heavenly salvation of the Church now—the Bride who shares the “twinkling” change.
The earthly salvation of mankind in the Kingdom—restoration through the righteous reign of Christ and his glorified Bride.
In both cases, it is the same Savior, the same ransom, the same love of God working out His eternal purpose.
With appreciation for your patient reasoning and earnest faith,
Peter
I’m sure we covered coming forth to stand in front of God does not need the return to life. As for standing Judgement those who do not call on the name of Jesus remain already judged and stand before God as such. The no longer are in whats called memorial tombs, remembered by God. They are now in the tomb awaiting the second death and so on. we’ve covered this and while you seem to hold on to orthodox doctrine which has no working order, I applaud your effort until logic wins. At least you now understand some of the importance of the Twinkling.
I would like to leave you with this thought, while it says it’s seven times harder to come back to your senses after being trapped, it connects with God’s number in my mind and thus the need to again call on his power. most of your readers will be able to identify with this next part of the post, it’s a statistical fact of today that most are in this state along with those “Alive” who have been trapped.
Trapped Alive.
2 Timothy 2:26 and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one.
I’ve been thinking of sharing these thoughts for a while, although working to arrive a working frame work seemed the priority. Now I think maybe a bit of fresh thought might help.
(1 Corinthians 15:33-34) 33 Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. 34 Wake up to soberness in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some are without knowledge of God. I am speaking to move YOU to shame.
What the scripture above relates, “make your path straight” , get it right. There is a frame work that must be grasp and maintained to continue to walk with God. If not you wind up back where you started.
I remember in the 70’s it hitting me how interesting the “internet”, or net as a title was. Chosen to describe the arrival of the information avenues of the information age. I read an article within that first few years that pointed out that within the first few hours of a new computer brought online, it was used to view pornography, this almost without exception in the United States. This fact made me think of this scripture,
(Matthew 4:19) . . .And he said to them: “Come after me, and I will make YOU fishers of men
We’ve discussed the concept that Satan is the “god of the air” or in other words the main influencer of mankind’s thinking. Also that Jesus will be the new “god of the air” when he arrives in the clouds, of the “Great cloud of witness’s” at the Twinkling.
Brings to mind a saying much used, ”what’s airing on tv today”. Now yes a lot here would be loose connections of conceptual statements. I’m sure this was present in the minds of Jesus’ followers when he was present too the reasoning on the connection to reality in general. This is our age, we must contribute advancement in the awareness’s of this age, given we now have a special advantage, the “spirit of understanding”. Take this thoughts as just that, thoughts.
Ok trapped alive. To be trapped alive you must first be alive. We’ve discussed this also, that born as Adams seed we are dead legally, remaining so unless we call on, exercise our belief in Jesus and the promise of return to life he promises us. Let’s just except for the moment you’ve taken in the milk of the truth, eaten some vegetables and are solidly eating meat so to speak. While drinking in the milk, or eating vegetables, you are most vulnerable to be side tracked from your pursuit of truth. So choked, lacking root as the bible describes it. But given the ingesting of meat we gain a lasting measure of strength, a stand, erect,. At this point we are likely to be noticed by Satan.
I’ll deal with just this one way that we can be trapped alive like a fish in a “net” or a bird in a cage, with the door open, pornography.
(Psalm 91:3) . . .For he himself will deliver you from the trap of the birdcatcher, From the pestilence causing adversities.
What most don’t or don’t want to deal with is that what’s called harmless imagery, produces in mankind a desire to view more. This is promoted by both, physical, mental, and emotional “habit”. As the body receives the chemical change or gratification, the Endorphins. This
, pleasure generates a craving for more. At first it seems simply a level of excitement that relatively harmless, although maybe along with a bit of guilt, and the thought that we should stop.
But “want” is a power, very underestimated. Soon we find the goal of stopping comes to us less, and seems hard to stay awake to. At this point we probably aren’t aware that we are becoming addicted. Soon we know this new truth, although we know the truth, are free from the world, if we so choose, we find that walking with God, walking through the open door, the door keeper Jesus, has provided is no longer within our power of “self control”, trapped alive.
(James 4:17) 17 Therefore, if one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.
(2 Timothy 2:26-3:7) 26 and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one. 3 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
This has been enjoyable. I sincerely pray for your use of your perceptive powers in these considerations, your brother, traveler.
I always appreciate the thoughtful way you reason through these matters. The “trapped alive” illustration you used is a powerful one, and I agree entirely that the Adversary’s snares are subtle, especially when they prey upon human weakness and habit. Paul’s warning that “bad associations spoil useful habits” (1 Cor. 15:33) is as timely now as ever, and your mention of pornography is an apt modern example of the “birdcatcher’s snare” (Ps. 91:3). These are real dangers to God’s people, and none of us can afford to be careless.
At the same time, I would like to return to the larger framework of resurrection and judgment that you raised. You noted that those not calling on the name of Jesus remain already judged, and in one sense that is true — “he that believeth not is condemned already” (John 3:18). But Scripture also shows that God has “appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained” (Acts 17:31). This judgment day is not merely a sentencing, but a period of trial and opportunity under Christ’s Kingdom rule. That is why “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth” (John 5:28–29). Their coming forth is not simply to immediate destruction, but to stand for trial in that great Day, when “the books were opened” (Rev. 20:12).
Thus the memorial tombs still serve their purpose — they picture that God remembers the dead, not to condemn them without remedy, but to restore them to life and give them the opportunity to learn righteousness (Isa. 26:9). Those who prove incorrigible under that Kingdom rule will indeed go into second death, but not without first having the full benefit of Christ’s mediatorial reign (1 Tim. 2:5–6).
I do appreciate your stress on the battle of the mind and heart. It is true that “frame of mind” determines whether we walk with God. Yet we also recognize that God’s plan embraces not only those who are called now to the heavenly hope, but also the vast majority of mankind who have not yet had their full day of trial. That is the beauty of the ransom — it “tasted death for every man” (Heb. 2:9).
So I agree with you that the dangers of our present age require vigilance, sobriety, and self-control (2 Tim. 3:1–5). But I also take comfort that the great Deliverer will shortly finish binding the strong man, and “all the families of the earth” shall be blessed through Abraham’s Seed (Gen. 28:14; Gal. 3:29). That broader hope keeps me steady when I see how deep the snares run in our time.
Thank you again, brother, for sharing these thoughtful connections. May we both continue to sharpen one another, and to “stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free” (Gal. 5:1).
Seems I must scroll starting at bottom of our exchanges to find your latest comment. Sorry if it seems I miss replying to points.
It seems that those hearing and coming forth from the tombs is a main point. Even the dead hear and come for, not to life but Judgement it says. The thousand year period of Christ’s reign is without out cry or suffering, so obviously there could not be unbelievers broght back to life in this period to somehow carrying on their former stands until convinced. Obviously it would be doubly painfully for those who did beleive and call on Jesus. Crossed from death to life,probably having tried in Ernest to save there loved ones, to see them reject again and be put to death in this new system. Jesus under God has complete control over the grave so when they consider a persons stand in life they have two choices based on the free will of those who took stands while in existence. One forgiven now alive to God in existence or in the grave, two judged, not forgiven. Dead to God in existence and in the grave. Time for reward, called out for consideration. The reward for those alive, return to life, existence, those dead remaining already judged, left in the grave. The Bible is very, very clear on these to results. No yes for that small group tha took a stand on the law within them, and given our natural inclination, with no spirit of adoption, small chance of carrying this law within over a life time, maybe some would be brought into the new system. This seems unlikely to represent a number we need to discuss. The entire thrust of the scripture lays out the life and death consequences of following God or not. The reality you are trying to lay out has very few that would affect a large number of humanity. So just forgive Adam and Eve their first mistakes showing patience and stop all the future suffering. The reason this didn’t happen is the same that keeps you from entering the grave in the wrong frame of mind, and the having the possibility of a return to existence. I guess I should ask do you beleive Adam and Eve are also coming back?
Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. I do see why you reason as you do, but I believe the Scriptures set out a broader and more hopeful arrangement than the two outcomes you’ve described.
You mention John 5:28–29, that all in the graves shall “hear his voice and come forth.” The passage itself makes a distinction: some “to a resurrection of life” and others “to a resurrection of judgment.” A resurrection of judgment does not mean they simply remain condemned — otherwise there would be no purpose to a resurrection at all. Rather, it means they will stand trial during the appointed “day in which God will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained” (Acts 17:31). That day is the thousand-year reign of Christ, when the books are opened and mankind is given opportunity to learn righteousness (Rev. 20:12; Isa. 26:9).
The picture is not of the saints rejoicing while watching their loved ones perish again, but of the saints — the Bride with Christ — sharing in the great work of blessing and teaching the nations (Rev. 22:17). The very reason the thousand years is described as a time without crying or pain (Rev. 21:4) is because the former things — sin, ignorance, injustice — are passing away under Christ’s reign. It would hardly be a blessing for “all the families of the earth” (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25) if the majority were never even given their day of trial.
As for Adam and Eve, yes — I believe they too will come back in the resurrection. Christ gave himself “a ransom for all” (1 Tim. 2:6), and Adam was the first man included in “all.” It is true their trial will be weighty, given the responsibility they once bore, but justice and mercy alike require that the ransom cover them as well as us. To deny them that opportunity would make Christ’s sacrifice less than universal. Hebrews 2:9 states plainly that he “tasted death for every man.”
You asked why God did not simply forgive Adam at once and spare the race the suffering. The answer is bound up in the demonstration of God’s character. By permitting sin and death to run their course, God has allowed mankind to learn — painfully, but lastingly — the consequences of disobedience. When the Kingdom restores mankind, that lesson will be forever engraved on human experience. Thus free will will still exist, but no one will ever need to doubt the wisdom of obedience again.
So yes, dear brother, I do believe in the resurrection of Adam and Eve, as well as the whole world of mankind. Some will inherit life immediately (the bride of Christ), others will come forth to judgment and discipline, but all will be given the fair opportunity that the ransom was designed to secure.
With warm regard and continued appreciation of your zeal for these matters,
Hi Peter. Strange as it seems, on my phone I have to sort through all our conversations to find your latest after seeing it in the side bar.
I loved this last one, thanks. In the 1,000 years brother will not teach brother. Having gone through the Twinkling all will be enlightened. They will use the full inheritance, as the heavens will be hoped to them as it was at their brother’s , Jesus’s adoption, and cross from death to life.
The picture fleshs out easly once you grasp the Twinkle, and the nature of adoption.
Yes Jesus’s delivery of the ransom price for our Father did re online those who never had any choice but being dead slaves by birth and law. This Ransom price was only of value to those that exercised faith, not to everyone it was offered to.But Adam and Eve had a choice. Within the thousand years mankind will have the opertunity to make a choice. Those falling, you know, Down,UP, God’s thoughts higher and being acquired, sorry let the joy of it raise me UP, for a moment. Soooo, those that chose a path, or more accurately hold a train of consideration leading away from common pursuit with God, will lose life. They with those who used free will to move away from God,did not exercise faith, will be thrown into the lake of fire. Obviously they won’t be alive.
The importance of a consideration is the frame of mind it starts to construct. The Bible/God tells us take every thought into captivity. Cultivate a relationship with yourself that puts you in control of the flesh, the house you inhabit, earth. Although I’d like to meet them Adam was weak, Eve was received.life and death are absolute concepts as are the consequences.
Sure it’s natural to wish none of this has happened. Exactly why the question can only be ask once. Not once now and again in population of perfect people,,, slowly watching it play out again. Who was it that was ask to say something to those being left behind as he entered into death. The response was something like this, if they didn’t listen in life what to you believe they will he someone from death speaks to them. One of those “THE PROPHET” Kahlil Gibran, moments. Profound happens every time it arrives for you,when and where, or through any one,is and has the “ring” of truth.
“Thus free will will still exist, but no one will ever need to doubt the wisdom of obedience again.”
You seem to be losing focus brother. A statement like this doesn’t seem on your normal level.
“Need” so your thinking God created Adam and Eve, with a need that lead them away,,, that, we will not have. Rather Adam was not deceived but fell anyway. A train of consideration even when you recover has damaged reality. We call it carrying a weight. “Put off every weight” only happens when your mind covers “distance ” UP. Down, to fall is away from God. So ” no man is fit for life,Adam’s offspring, fathered by Satan in that very day Eve was received must be adopted, which only happens, now. You see because everything connects that is right, no leap of Faith is needed. I hope your frame of mind isn’t wearing down answering all of who seem to just drop by. Thanks brother
Sorry about the miss spell and wrong words. I’ll try to not send unless I have time to correct. Coffees running out, the days work is pressing, I hit send mostly experiencing, that’s enough time given. A weakness I’ll work with.
Thank you again for your thoughtful words and for the heartfelt way you express your hope in God’s plan. I rejoice that we share the conviction that the ransom of Christ is central, that obedience is essential, and that the ultimate outcome of God’s plan will be a universe where His will is done on earth as in heaven (Matthew 6:10).
You touched on several deep matters, and I’d like to reflect on a few points you raised.
1. The Value of the Ransom
You rightly emphasize that Adam and Eve had a choice, and their disobedience brought sin and death upon all their offspring (Romans 5:12). Yet, the ransom of Christ was “a corresponding price” (1 Timothy 2:5–6)—the perfect life of one man for the forfeited life of another, and thus for all who were in him. This secured the legal right for every descendant of Adam to have a future opportunity for life. Paul writes, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order” (1 Corinthians 15:22–23).
Faith is indeed required to benefit from that ransom, but the testimony of it is said to come to “all in due time” (1 Timothy 2:6). The vast majority of mankind has not yet had the full light, and so the Millennial reign will be the great day when knowledge covers the earth (Isaiah 11:9).
2. Resurrection and Enlightenment
You mentioned that in the thousand years “brother will not teach brother.” That recalls Jeremiah’s prophecy: “They shall teach no more every man his neighbor, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest” (Jeremiah 31:34). This is indeed the blessing of the New Covenant, administered by Christ and His Bride.
But before all reach that point of enlightenment, there is a process. John 5:28–29 assures us that all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth—not to immediate perfection, but to a trial in which they may be raised up, step by step, out of sin and weakness into righteousness (Acts 24:15; Isaiah 26:9).
3. Free Will and Obedience
You noted that free will continues, but that none will need to doubt obedience again. That is beautifully said. God does not take away man’s power of choice, but through the experience of evil now—and the thorough contrast with the reign of righteousness to come—all intelligent creatures will have learned forever that His way is best. This is what Ecclesiastes 7:29 tells us: “God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.” The Millennium will prove, beyond question, that life and blessing flow only from willing obedience to God’s will (Deuteronomy 30:19).
4. The “Scarcely Saved” and the World’s Trial
You raised before the text, “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:18). This applies especially to the Church now, being tested under difficult conditions in the present evil world. Their salvation is “with difficulty” because it requires sacrifice, endurance, and overcoming while Satan is still the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4). But the ungodly and sinner will appear in their own time of trial—in the Day of Judgment (Acts 17:31). There they will not be condemned without hope, but judged righteously, each according to their response to Christ when the knowledge of the Lord fills the earth. Those who persist in rebellion, even with full light, will indeed face the second death (Revelation 20:14–15).
5. Adoption Through Christ
You spoke of adoption. Yes, all of Adam’s race must be adopted out of death into God’s family. The Apostle Paul writes, “Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father” (Galatians 4:6). The Bride of Christ experiences this adoption now in a special way, but during the Kingdom all the willing and obedient of mankind will likewise be restored into full sonship with God (Romans 8:21).
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Dear brother, I believe we are striving toward the same vision—life, light, and love restored through Christ’s reign. Where we may see the details differently, let us keep searching the Scriptures together (Acts 17:11), knowing that in God’s due time all His purposes will be made plain.
Peter, as always I appreciate the way in which you patiently respond. You are right I beleive we both seek the same goal. Although I can’t embrace your suffer now, suffer again later picture of the reign of christ, I do believe in your earnest efforts to make “sense” of a “Way” that minimizes the error of Adam and Eve. I see many of the lessons learned are the same for both of us, there is a bride of christ to be kings and priests to serve a larger body. All will “hear” and be rewarded in a Resurrection event, and peace will come. We both want a time where suffering does not exist. I enjoy the continued depth of your attempt to reason with me. I believe its not in the scriptures we’ll find life, but in the connection of love snuggling brothers and sisters in belief in christ,have, not the amount they get , “right” in the Hazy outline we now have. You do a great service here on this site dimenstrating brotherly patience. I’ve never seen a congregation that is not in desperate need of the grasp of your approach and heart felt motivations. I freely admit I find release in your willingness to reason beyond what I’ve found to be normal lack of depth in the general population, even among those that would be teachers in the various provisions, Divisions, denominations, attempting to help us see the “one true congregation of Jesus’ followers”.
It’s not always to long a sentence, or to deep the thought that denote a heretic, I beleave, but the steadfast belief that new thought is to be feared, that does it. I pray for all who associate with the zealots, the wolves, in our “way” of reason, our taking of the “upward path”. As it states “the thinking man will be hated”. For those who need it, I’m saying “thank you for your time.”
Sincerely your brother.
Thank you, dear brother, for your kind and generous words. Your spirit of humility and desire for truth shines through each of your messages, and I deeply appreciate your continued fellowship and willingness to reason together on the precious things of God.
I agree that our shared goal is clear: to see the time when suffering, sin, and death shall be no more—when the creation itself “shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God” (Romans 8:21).
You are right to emphasize love as the great binding power among all who seek Christ. As our Lord said, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:35). No amount of doctrinal precision can replace that spirit of brotherly affection.
Still, I believe that Scripture’s testimony about the process of restoration—its order and purpose—is also part of that love, for it reveals the wisdom and justice of our Heavenly Father’s plan. Allow me to share a few reflections on the points you raised:
1. The Present Suffering and Future Glory
You mentioned that you cannot quite accept a “suffer now, suffer again later” view of Christ’s reign. I understand that concern. But the sufferings of this present Gospel Age are unique to the class called to be the Bride of Christ. They “suffer with Him” now that they may also “reign with Him” then (Romans 8:17; 2 Timothy 2:12).
Their trials are permitted in a world still under the power of evil, as they are being tested and proved for their future service. But when the Kingdom is fully established, their suffering will be complete—forever past. They will then share with Christ in removing suffering from the rest of humanity, as priests and kings (Revelation 20:6).
Thus, mankind in general will not “suffer again later,” but will experience correction, education, and uplift under righteous government—“when the judgments of the LORD are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness” (Isaiah 26:9). The reign of Christ is not a time of renewed pain, but of healing and restoration—though not without the firm discipline that leads to righteousness (Isaiah 35:8–10; Acts 3:21).
2. The Bride and the Larger Body
We fully agree that the Bride of Christ serves a larger purpose. As you beautifully put it, they are to be kings and priests for the blessing of all. Revelation 22:17 paints the picture: “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come… and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
This invitation shows the Bride’s ministry is outward-looking—an expression of love and service toward the entire race. Their own transformation now is not for privilege, but for preparation—to share in the great work of blessing “all families of the earth” (Genesis 22:18).
3. Life Found in Love—and in Truth
I deeply agree with your thought that life is not found merely in the letter of Scripture, but in the living connection of love. Yet we remember that true love and true doctrine are never in conflict. Jesus prayed, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17). Love without truth can drift into sentiment; truth without love can harden into judgment—but together they reflect the full character of God (1 John 4:8).
So, while we “see through a glass darkly” (1 Corinthians 13:12), our study of the divine plan is not an exercise in speculation, but an act of worship—an endeavor to know our Father better and reflect His image more clearly.
4. Thinking Men and Humility of Faith
Your observation that “the thinking man will be hated” has a ring of truth. Jesus Himself said, “If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you” (John 15:20). Yet how blessed are those who hold to faith and reason together, refusing both blind zeal and cold intellect. The Apostle urges, “Be not children in understanding… but in understanding be men” (1 Corinthians 14:20).
The path upward requires both heart and mind engaged in harmony—faith seeking understanding, not pride seeking superiority.
Brother, I am truly thankful for your fellowship in these matters. You remind me that patient discussion and mutual respect are themselves proofs of the Spirit at work. I believe we are both, in our own ways, striving to walk that upward path that leads nearer to our Father, through Christ.
May His grace continue to enlighten both our minds and our hearts, until “the knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14).
Connecting to my last comment about God’s people eventually known as Isreal, the offspring of Abraham. These people under God’s influence where put under a system of government know also as Israel to the world, although it was accurately the Nation of Israel. Like Moses lead these people with their many followers out of the wilderness, Jesus lead these people under God’s influence out of the “nation” over them. People get confused when Paul refers to his brothers among the Israelites, a reference to those bone under the nation. Paul could not know which of those still identifying with the nation would “hear” and respond to the call to follow Jesus, excepting him as The messiah. Paul hoped that many like himself who thought you could be born a Jew, a son of Israel, would wake “UP” to the fact that in fact you must have the right frame of mind and heart to be a Jew, one of God’s People.
Your comment touches on important spiritual truths about the identity of God’s people and the transition from the nation of Israel to the spiritual calling through Jesus as the Messiah. The teachings emphasize that God’s people, initially represented through the physical descendants of Abraham, were organized as a nation to reflect His purpose. However, as you noted, the shift came with Jesus, who fulfilled the Law and opened the way for a spiritual Israel, not bound by physical descent but by faith and a heart aligned with God’s will.
When Paul speaks of his brothers among the Israelites, he indeed refers to those born under the nation’s covenant, yet he underscores that true belonging to God’s people hinges on accepting Jesus as the promised Messiah. This aligns with the idea that being a “Jew” or part of God’s chosen is not about birthright alone but about a transformed mind and heart, responding to the call of faith. As you suggest, Paul’s hope was for many to “wake up” to this truth, recognizing that righteousness comes through faith in Christ, not merely through the Law or national identity.
This understanding highlights the broader invitation to all—regardless of background—to become part of God’s people by accepting the Messiah and living in harmony with His teachings. It’s a call to spiritual awakening, as you put it, to embrace the true essence of what it means to be part of God’s purpose.
Yes you have most of it, but Jesus poited out that ” the kingdom among you will be taken from you.” Kingdom means range of influence, or in this case those under God’s influence, in other words God’s people. Not understanding that the kingdom of people referred to these “true Jews” is why the “Christian ” world does not understand matt. 6-5’15, the lord’s prayer. You see that God gives ears to hear, and eyes to see through the pouring out of his active energy, commonly called holy spirit. This force acts as God wills for each use he intends. In the case of those under his influence andhis adopted children. It gives increased mental capacity to understand those truths revealed by Jesus constuting the UPward call, or path. This path when covered will cause the pursuer to arrive eventually at the Twinkling and a full understanding of God’s will, generated by the full adoption and its full inheritance. So when the request is made ” let your kingdom come” it’s a request for God to pour out the promised spirit. At the Twinkling God’s will, will be done on earth as li is in heaven.
Thank you for sharing such thoughtful observations again. You raise some important points, and I’d like to respond by connecting them with the Scriptural record.
First, you’re right that being part of God’s people is not a matter of physical descent alone. Jesus told the Jews of his day that if they were truly Abraham’s children they would do the works of Abraham (John 8:39). Paul also explained, “He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but he is a Jew who is one inwardly” (Rom. 2:28–29). So true Israel is made up of those whose hearts are in harmony with God. At the same time, Paul assures us that God still has a future plan for natural Israel: “Blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:25–26). Their eventual restoration is part of God’s larger plan to bless “all the families of the earth” (Gen. 22:18).
When Jesus warned that “the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it” (Matt. 21:43), he showed that the kingdom means God’s active rule over those who submit to Him. Since Israel as a nation rejected Messiah, that privilege passed to the spiritual Israel — those who walk by faith (Gal. 6:16).
You also noted how it is God’s spirit that gives “ears to hear” and “eyes to see.” Exactly so. The prophet said, “The eyes of those who see will not be dim, and the ears of those who hear will listen” (Isa. 32:3). Paul prayed that the Ephesians would have “the eyes of your understanding enlightened” (Eph. 1:18). God’s active power awakens and strengthens those He is calling.
As for the upward call, Paul said he pressed toward “the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 3:14). This is the heavenly invitation given to the Bride of Christ. At the end of the age, they will be changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:52). Meeting the Lord “in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17) is symbolic of entering into association with Christ’s rulership, not going into the literal heavens where God dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16).
But this heavenly hope does not mean God has no provision for the rest of mankind. The ransom of Christ covers all: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). Jesus promised that “all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth” (John 5:28–29). Under the Kingdom, the world will be taught righteousness: “When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness” (Isa. 26:9). Those who respond will receive life; those who refuse will face the second death (Acts 3:23; Rev. 20:14–15).
Finally, when we pray, “Let Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matt. 6:10), we are asking both for God’s spirit to work in us now (Luke 11:13) and for the full establishment of His Kingdom, when “the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9).
So in harmony with what you’ve shared, we can see both the present work of God’s spirit in preparing the Bride for the upward call, and the future work of the Kingdom in restoring Israel and blessing all mankind.
With appreciation for your thoughtful reasoning,
Peter K
I always enjoy your response. I’m not sure how to keep you in touch withe God’s people who predates, the title Isreal or Isralite and the national organization, called by the name Israel. These are distinctly different things. Those under God’s influence. GOD’S KINDOM Always had many associating with the who were not true followers. It was r
The same in Jesus day. When the Bible relates to God’s people it never embraced those associated but not under his influence. So while phisical lineage comes into play in cases like Abraham’s, it still is not the determining factor to say one is one of God’s people. All hear the UPward call, not just those who eventually fill the bride class to serve the great cloud of witnesses. All are anointed by the knowledge given by God through Jesus and the affect of the adoptive spirit. The promises made to Israel were not made to a nation political organization. But to a people, who would eventually constitute God’s rebuilt temple. You get a little closer each time you try to make orthodox doctrine fit into a logical order. Focus on frame of mind as the determining factor for God’s people and for the eventual goal for the return to the garden not heaven.
Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. I always appreciate how carefully you consider these matters. You’re right — there has always been a difference between those merely associated with God’s people outwardly and those truly under His influence. Even in ancient Israel, “not all who are of Israel are Israel” (Rom. 9:6). Jesus himself showed this when he spoke of those who claimed Abraham as their father but did not do the works of Abraham (John 8:39–40).
At the same time, God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were not meaningless. The Law Covenant and the promises were given to them (Rom. 9:4–5). Paul tells us that their temporary “casting off” leads to blessing for the Gentiles, but their eventual regathering will mean “life from the dead” for the world (Rom. 11:12, 15, 25–27). So while the promises were always intended for a faithful people — a spiritual seed — God still has a future purpose for natural Israel as a channel of blessing to mankind (Isa. 2:2–4; Zech. 8:22–23).
You mention that all hear the upward call. I would agree that the knowledge of God’s plan is eventually for all, but Paul makes a distinction in ranks of resurrection: “Each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at his presence” (1 Cor. 15:23). The Bride, the spiritual temple class, is indeed called and anointed now, being prepared as “living stones” for God’s temple (1 Pet. 2:5). This is a limited calling — the “little flock” (Luke 12:32) who share the heavenly inheritance with Christ.
Then, under that completed temple arrangement, the broader blessings of knowledge and adoption into God’s earthly family will reach the world of mankind. That is when “the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord” (Hab. 2:14) and when all who have not known Him will be taught of God (Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31:33–34). The garden you mention — the restored Eden — is precisely the inheritance of obedient mankind: “The meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace” (Ps. 37:11, 29; Matt. 5:5).
So I would put it this way:
• God’s true people have always been defined by faith and obedience, not mere association.
• The upward call is limited to the Bride, who will serve as kings and priests with Christ (Rev. 20:6).
• The knowledge and anointing of the spirit will indeed extend to all mankind under the Kingdom, leading to their restoration to the earthly paradise (Acts 3:19–21).
This way, both aspects of God’s promise are fulfilled — the heavenly seed (the Bride of Christ) and the earthly seed (restored mankind through Israel) — together blessing all nations (Gen. 22:18).
With warm appreciation for your continued fellowship in these deep truths,
The law covenant and promises. We’re not given to a nation but to a people. The scriptures are very clear on this. The new covenant also was given to a people applied in the future. Rank is indeed mentioned, first Jesus receives his reward, then on his return, all, who have the spirit of adoption in them ” hear”, and complete the upward call with the completion of their inheritance. All meet Jesus on his, Return, in the “air”. No mention of Heaven. I beleive brothe Wright a Catholic scholar has realized this and published it also. Not that logic and close examination needs, backup. The nation, the organizing of a people are one thing, Order of rules. Rules are not able to receive. The people were warned that the law would lead to only one thing, condemnation as it did. Jesus the new head of this nation, order. Said straight out he was resolving this order and would put in it’s place a new order, Nation. Israel, the people, did receive and acknowledge this new order. There is no place for an old order that did not serve the people. Produce fruit. The new order did avheive this, Jesus part of the people, Israel was the first fruit among many. The people under God’s influence constitute Gods kingdom. Those people, the “True Jews”,by frame of mind, the sons of Israel, by frame of mind, the offspring of Abraham by frame of mind, followed their new king under God’s influence God’s influence. The nation was not at the time Jesus arrived obeying God’s influence. Abraham’s lineage physically had little true meaning in all this, outside of a historic fact and this was pointed out to those thinking the nation was God’s representative and those thinking they were Jews but were not. Stiff necked in pride these people who may have been part of Israel at one time, or who were simply born into this national group. Lead the national order against God and his son. Even so they were offered the chance to turn around, to follow Jesus. But did not. This his historic fact. Frame of mind starting with Adam and Eve, must be followed to establish a working framework that allows the information in the Bible and in reality to be put in a logical order. The fact that the nation of Israel continues to deny God is however a blessing of sorts to the members of Israel that left the nation because it draws attention from the True Jews, now members of Jesus’congregation, and nolonger Jews but still Sons of Israel. How dark Satan’s mind to carry out the persecution against a national group,because Jesus’s congregation is under God’s protection. A protection when you think on it we could have never thought up and the world still doesn’t grasp. I can’t know what pressures being an administrator places on you but I respect your attempts to carry through with them.
Roman’s 12:1 with your power of reason, is the sacred service, pursue that which God also pursues.
2 Corinthians 13:5, keep on testing that you, are, in the faith.
Thank you for establishing a regular opertunity to have an exchange on this level brother. As always, acupuncture of coffee in one had the phone in the other and the spelling problems go on testing your patience I’m sure.
I always value the time you take to reason these matters out, and I can see your deep respect for the way God has worked through His people in different ages. You are right that the Law Covenant by itself could not give life — it served as a “tutor to lead to Christ” (Gal. 3:24), exposing sin and pointing to the need of the Redeemer. As Paul said, “by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified” (Gal. 2:16). The condemnation it revealed is precisely what made Christ’s ransom necessary.
Still, I would make a distinction that the Scriptures themselves emphasize. The promises and covenants were entrusted to Israel as a nation (Rom. 9:4–5). Yes, only the faithful within Israel truly received the blessing, but God nevertheless used that national framework for His purposes until Christ came (Amos 3:2). The fact that Jesus was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4) shows that God had not abandoned that arrangement until the appointed time.
Now, as you say, Christ inaugurated a new order — the New Covenant — but notice carefully: this covenant is indeed made “with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” (Jer. 31:31; Heb. 8:8–10). Through Israel it extends to all nations, just as God promised Abraham: “In thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed” (Gen. 22:18). Israel’s stumbling therefore does not cancel the promise but delays its fulfillment until the appointed “times of restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21). Paul explains that their temporary blindness means riches for the Gentiles, but their eventual acceptance will be “life from the dead” (Rom. 11:12, 15, 25–27).
Regarding the “air,” you rightly note it symbolizes the sphere of Christ’s presence. Meeting the Lord “in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17) denotes a new spiritual dominion, invisible to the world but powerful in its influence. The Bride class, the “little flock” (Luke 12:32), share that spiritual inheritance with Christ — not merely by frame of mind, but by actual change into his likeness (1 John 3:2; 1 Cor. 15:51–52). Then, under that completed heavenly Kingdom, the rest of mankind will be uplifted on earth. Thus two salvations — one heavenly, one earthly — harmonize God’s plan.
So, while I agree with you that mere physical descent never guaranteed favor, we cannot dismiss God’s choice of Israel as the channel through which His blessings are ordered. The “true Jew” is one inwardly (Rom. 2:28–29), yet God has promised to use even natural Israel as an instrument in the age to come. This preserves both the historic role and the prophetic future.
I deeply appreciate your fellowship in examining these truths, and your reminder of Romans 12:1 — using the power of reason as sacred service. May we continue proving all things (2 Cor. 13:5), that we might hold fast to what is good.
Connected to my last post. Remember Jesus pointed out it is not physical lineage that determines you are one of God’s people, in his day termed Jew. “Those who say they are Jews but are not” this an observation of those who depended on physical lineage. So although physical lineage was brought up it was only to point out to the nation of Israel that no matter how you looked at it Jesus would be the awaited messiah.
I’m new here so this should be under some other comments I beleive. But reading a little on this site it seem ther is a common misconception relating to resurrection. Resurrection is a process not a result. To stand before God and receive your reward.some receive a return to existencefrom the grave some remain in the grave already judged because the did not call on the name of christ. Jesus was given a kingship over the living and the dead, in that he was head is those given life and the keeper of those left in the grave awaiting the coming destruction. It is sad that only a few find the narrow path. It is however a life saying work to spread the word.
Once Gods right to decide right and wrong, his soverinty was called into question, no one could be destroyed until the question is answered. Being loving we wish all to be saved, but those who chose other paths have God’s word it can be played out once and they will recieve the reward earned.. GOD IS BOND BY HIS WORD AMONG OTHER THINGS It also helps to keep track of the fact that there is only one Savior God, and one savior lower case from among us Jesus. One King,over all, one king. Lower case Jesus over us now.
Hi Traveler. Your comments about the resurrection process made me think of some questions that might make for an interesting discussion. You are welcome to respond if you are so inclined.
Ultimately who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally lost?
Will a child that dies before the age of accountability have a resurrection opportunity?
The people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Noah. Will they have a resurrection opportunity?
Old civilizations in South America never had access to the Bible that we know of. Would good people who lived according to their God provided conscience have any future hope of a resurrection process?
How can anyone before Christ be saved, not having accepted Jesus as their personal savior?
I think it would be interesting to consider scriptures relating to these questions if you would like. Or perhaps you want to consider another topic.
“Will a child that dies before the age of accountability have a resurrection opportunity?”
These subjects are difficult although clear, But hard to relate to a mixed audience, not wanting to weaken those with a weaker understanding. The law given by God is quite clear on the accountability of a child who is under age, it depends on the parents/head of the household. Jesus as an example although a Son of God, was adopted by Joseph, and so came to be under the law of condemnation. The law of condemnation was for all of humanity a judgment, if you did not live free of sin that is. Had Jesus not presented himself to be baptized, do Gods will, while in slaves form, he would have died under this law. So that’s the simple answer.
In all this, people forget that humanity left Gods path when our parents did. We all are considered dead as long as we are off spring of Adam. Now here again we see the importance of frame of mind. The answering of the question of God’s right to decide right and wrong has as many facets as Humanity and the Angels attempts to find life apart from God and his suggested direction. One of these attempts was ask for when man ask for perfect law, which they were warned about, in that it would condemn them, as it did. We ask for Kings, which never worked out very well. Many direction have been tried, war for example and so on.
(1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?”.
In reality we have “self evident truth” placed in front of us, as the creation. In that creation relating to humanity there is a law or awarness written into us you could say, by our nature. We have a sense of right and wrong. It’s on this base that mankind before Jesus and after, was judged or forgiven. Remember we are the offspring of Abraham who did not know Jesus or was ever under the law given to Israel.
14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.
“people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Noah. Will they have a resurrection opportunity?”
All will receive a resurrection, to life/return to existence, or to remain in the grave awaiting the coming destruction. Outside of Jesus no man is fit for life, but must be forgiven. We are not Judges. Resurrection is a process carried out by God through Jesus, not the result of life or death/destruction.
There is one more interesting aspect of this “question of Sovereignty” until it is answered no being can be destroyed. God is bond by his word and the law he lives by to allow the question to reach it’s conclusion. This really shows why an “Over-view” is necessary. With out this frame work, questions that are answered simply in the Bible can not be understood in a “WAY” that makes a logical conclusions able to be arrived at.
“Ultimately who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally lost?”
We just touched on the answer in the last few sentences. First remember that immortality just means life without natural death. Mankind and the Angels have ask for and tried many “Ways” to find life without following Our Fathers direction of pursuit. We are close to the last possibility to be considered, a large population of Perfect humanity. This will be those of the Twinkling and their offspring born during the thousand year reign of Jesus. Those that fail this time period will lose life and await the coming destruction with those already in the grave. Everyone left at the end of the thousand years will have never lost life, either in their stay in the grave before the Twinkling or after.
(1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?”.
(Romans 2:12-29) 12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare. 17 If, now, you are a Jew in name and are resting upon law and taking pride in God, 18 and you know his will and approve of things that are excellent because you are orally instructed out of the Law; 19 and you are persuaded that you are a guide of the blind, a light for those in darkness, 20 a corrector of the unreasonable ones, a teacher of babes, and having the framework of the knowledge and of the truth in the Law— 21 do you, however, the one teaching someone else, not teach yourself? You, the one preaching “Do not steal,” do you steal? 22 You, the one saying “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You, the one expressing abhorrence of the idols, do you rob temples? 23 You, who take pride in law, do you by your transgressing of the Law dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is being blasphemed on account of YOU people among the nations”; just as it is written. 25 Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the uncircumcised [person] that is such by nature will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who with its written code and circumcision are a transgressor of law. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
Travelor – I really appreciated your detailed answer. You are clearly very knowledgeable about scriptures and very thoughtful in your consideration of these issues. Although I don’t see everything exactly the way you said it, you have my respect.
If I understand correctly, you believe that a child who dies underage is judged based on their parents standing with God. This reminds me of Jeremiah 31:29: which states that people will no longer say, “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”.
When you say that Jesus came under the “law of condemnation,” are you referring to the Adamic curse or the Mosaic Law? Do you agree that Jesus was perfect and sinless and therefore hypothetically, if he had died in an accident prior to his baptism, he would not have been condemned to eternal death?
Do you feel confident that people who have died in unbelief or lacking knowledge of Jesus Christ are eternally destroyed? Are you open to the possibility of a future judgement period and opportunity for accepting Jesus as their savior after the general resurrection of mankind on earth in the future?
You mention that living with out sin according to law would allow for life everlasting, it would. But you forget God’s will. Jesus was not sent to save himself, which would have made it an attempt to grasp life apart from God’s will, comparable again to Satan.
Yes Travelor, I agree. I was just expanding on the topic. However, on another point, I would like to ask you if you see any possibilties for unblelivers to have a future judgment opporuntiy to accetpt Jesus as indicated at this link? https://www.beyondwatchtower.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/
I wish I did, but if you do not call on jesus God must respect your choice made with free will. It is sad that something that is so fundamental in realities as right and wrong really costs so many lives amongst the confuse of those deceived. Satan chose well. Eve was deceived but probably had the stronger mind. She was as we say capable of thinking out side of the box. You would expect our Father to give more in a partner than expected. But Adam was just weak, he put his desire for Eve ahead of his connection with his Father. It seems most appropriate that those wo caused the most damage, women, would t a ke the lead in the life saving work as described in the Bible, a large Amy of women.
I take the verses below to mean that God will have a special heavenly salvation for beleivers, but that he also has a salvation plan for the rest of the world. This makes sense since 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV and 1 Tim 2:4 says, God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
God did come to the rescue of all men/humanity when he sent his on to reconcile mankind to himself. He did wand all who wanted to come to life,to do that. He never wished for this reality of the realities to be in the first place. JESUS ransom price did cover the sins of the world. Now it’s our chance to “come” , to make our minds “UP”. Remember the original home given to mankind. The one to be put in order again.
“Let your kingdom” that’s us and the desire to be one with God which needs the pouring out of the spirit on us to give increased mental capacity so we can cover distance “UP” the path. “Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
JESUS is coming down, back, to rule “over the earth with the new Jerusalem, the 144000 which he will “call” “UP”.
Getting, tent, house, mansion, temple, house of God, firmly in mind as the state of mind on the”WAY” to oneness of mind, with God is essential to an understanding of the “nature of what,is” as I say. The Bible and reality are about frame of mind. Adam,lost it, a n abroad frame of mind, Jesus was sent to regain it, and show us the WAY to all so. Living in another dimension was never part of the plan for us. Studying the word Heaven it’s use and translations miss use helps once you have the general story line in hand, a frame work of reference to what needs to be achieved in our exercise of understanding/faith.
“Let your kingdom come” refers to our making progress up the path. It means we have a desire for the spirit of understanding to be poured out on us. Adam lost approved frame of mind. We must regain it. And last tent,house,mansion,temple, city(new Jerusalem),house of God, all reference a certain frame of mind,personally, and as a group, at differing levels of awareness.
Hi Travelor – Thanks for your response. I see that you are focusing on a unified process where all are invited to progress spiritually and that you agree that salvation is available to all, but you emphasize the need for active participation in spiritual growth. I agree with you, however I beleive that for the unbelieving world of mankind, an instruction, learning and repentance opportunity exists in the future kingdom of God on earth.
Time of Teaching & Learning
Isa 29:18, 24 – Deaf will hear, blind will see. Those who erred will understand.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Isa 35:8 – “The way of holiness… shall be for (the redeemed)…fools, shall not err (therein).” ASV
ALL People will Worship & Serve God
Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
Rev 15:4 – all nations shall come and worship before You..” NKJV
Dan 7:14, 27 – “ALL peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him” His kingdom is everlasting
Isa 66:23 – all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. ASV
Ps 22:27 – “ all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.” NKJV
Ps 138:4 – “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD “ NKJV
Ps 72:8,11,17 – “all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him” NKJV
Rev 11:15 – “kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord… He shall reign forever”
Rev 21:23-24 – “the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings … bring their glory into it.” Mal 1:11 “My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to” God
(see also Ps 86:9; Ps 65:1-2; Zech 2:11; Zech 9:10)
Rev 5:13 – “And every creature … heard I saying, Blessing, and honor…to… the Lamb for ever” AKJV
My understanding now does not allow for the possibility you hold. But learning means testing daily. I’ll think through the direction you are suggesting brother.
Hi Peter, I read through your train of thought. While all sorts are to be saved, this was covered when we discussed the possible ones saved before christ or possibly those who are forgiven by living the law within themselves, a long shot I think. We looked “if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, where will the unrighteous man make a showing.” The life and death aspect of reality rules out those who do not call on christ finding life. It clearly states that Jesus is given authority over those left in the grave after the Twinkly those awaiting the coming destruction. So it is normal to wise all to be saved. By this mankind’s second chance. But if one does not cross from death to life in this system there is no chance to in the next thousand year system. That is why this work of sharing the good news is so important. The witness’s took up this all get saved now or have a chance later, with a twist. They stated or maybe still do, that if you are never approached with the truth you’ll have a chance in the thousand years. I pointed out that since it’s know that most will not except the JW witness, it means that they would be conducting a life taking work. Surely with physical proof in the thousand years and the apocalypse behind the odds would be increased that many more might stand erect. As you can guess that came across well. No the Bible is quite clean no third changes. The call from the bride those sons recieving a one part share with Jesus to rule earth as breast’s and kings will certainly play a part in teaching on the upwould path having a higher awareness shared as the bride of christ. They too again do not have a promise of living in a nother dimension. Satan is said to be the god of the air in this system. This means he controls or motivates the minds of mankind in general. Jesus becomes the god of the air taking control from Satan. The 144,000, the bide class, meet Jesus in this new frame of mind, or in the air, on his return, again as we discussed in the event, the twinkly.
Yes, I agree there are no third chances in the 1,000 years. My view is the only people under eternal judgement before the resurrection during the 1,000 years are those that were baptized into Christ and received the Holy Spirit. Yes, God brings consequences and retribution for all evil, but for the ultimate purpose of rehabilitation. After the resurrection, that will be the eternal judgement period for mankind. The Bride Class you mentioned will rule over them, subordinate to Jesus. When “the knowledge of the LORD covers the earth as the waters cover the seas” (Habakkuk 2:14) there will be no excuse for evil. Then the wicked will be eternally destroyed, which will hopefully be a very small percentage of mankind.
1 Peter 4:18—“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”—is a sobering reminder of the narrowness of the path to life, even for the faithful. This verse I suggest is emphasizing the rigorous testing and refining that the righteous must undergo during their earthly probation, during the Gospel Age.
The “righteous” refers to those who have accepted Christ and are striving to walk in obedience and consecration. Their salvation is “scarcely” achieved not because God is unwilling, but because the path requires endurance, self-denial, and faithfulness under trial. This aligns with his broader teaching that the Church is being developed as the “little flock” who will reign with Christ in the Millennial Age.
As for “the ungodly and the sinner,” this is not a declaration of eternal destruction. Instead, such individuals will face judgment in the future—specifically during the Millennial Age—when they would have a full, fair opportunity to learn righteousness under Christ’s Kingdom. In that sense, 1 Peter 4:18 serves as both a warning to the consecrated and a foreshadowing of future accountability for the rest of humanity.
These are my suggestions. Thanks for your insights.
Hi Petter, sorry I’ve been very busy but thought I’d share my first general thought about those how do not call on Jesus getting another chance under Christ’s new system.
It seems illogical on its face that Jesus or those following him while he lived and in the immediate years after, would take a stand, often leading to torture and death if they thought they could just wait and take advantage of the next system where ther would be no pain or out cry. I mean sawn asunder or wait.
I will try to soon go through the scriptures you’ve listed showing how each fits into a logical framework. I enjoy your depth of thought though brother.
I am glad that in your busy schedule you are still interested in continuing the conversation as you are able.
I would like to respond to the excellent question you raised about why wouldn’t Jesus followers escape suffering and just wait for the kingdom.
Those who followed Jesus during his earthly ministry and shortly thereafter were responding to a heavenly invitation—not merely waiting for earthly relief. He taught that:
– The Gospel Age was a special time when God was selecting a “little flock” (Luke 12:32) to be joint-heirs with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom.
– This calling required faithfulness unto death (Revelation 2:10), and suffering was a refining process to prepare the saints for glory (Romans 8:17–18) and responsibilities as earth’s future judges, priests and kings under Jesus, their head judge, priest and king.
– The future earthly Kingdom would be for the general blessing of mankind, but the Church’s role was to be part of the ruling class with Christ—hence the urgency and sacrifice.
Here are some key texts to support this view:
| Romans 8:17–18 | Suffering with Christ – Suffering is a prerequisite for glorification
| Revelation 2:10 | Faithfulness unto death – The crown of life is given to those who endure
| 2 Timothy 2:12 | Reigning with Christ – Endurance leads to co-rulership
| Luke 12:32 | The “little flock” – A select group called during the Gospel Age
| Acts 14:22 | Tribulation before the Kingdom – Entry into the Kingdom requires hardship
| Philippians 3:14 | High calling – A prize that demands pressing forward despite trials
Waiting passively for the Kingdom would mean missing the opportunity to be part of the first resurrection (Revelation 20:6), which is the reward for those who were faithful during the Gospel Age.
The idea of “just waiting” would miss the entire purpose of the Christian calling:
– The Church is being tested now, while the world will be blessed later.
– Those who suffer now are being prepared to bless others in the future (Galatians 3:29).
– The Kingdom is not merely a refuge, but a government of co-rulers, and that role requires that they are sanctified (become holy, pure, righteous)) through trial.
Trying to get in touch with where we left off.
The Bible states “the thinking man is hated”. All are anointed by the information of Jesus held. Jesus was anointed as his brothers it just says with more. The same case will be when the 144,000 are chosen.
The UPward call, or as some say the heavenly calling, is the call everyone hears to pursue the UPward path of reason laid out by Jesus as a beginning. All will suffer, all most remain faithful to death. The one exception is those alive when the end comes.
Jesus secured the promise of a resurrection that results in a return to existence. Jesus was the first one, the first fruit of this first resurrection returning those in the grave at the Twinkling back to existence. The second resurrection result of course are those who without ever returning to existence. Having not called on christ to do so, are cast into the lake of fire. The 144,000 are the least among humanity, fitting kings and priests. The stiff necked nation of Israel never got that God was making himself strong with that which is weak. Obviously they were some of the weakest on earth. Yes we are thankful for the real, the true Jews who served in humility and humbled themselves,so that the promises could be carried forward. Looking at the choosing, it’s interesting to note that the new nation created by Jesus, or through Jesus in the new order will still have tribes. We know that really only a relatively small number left the nation of Israel, and that there are those grafted in to this number. But “tribe” must have to do with the orderly running this new nation.
The new order will be the last possibility to be explored, a large number of people, enlightened during the Twinkling so they rise, are lifted UP to a perfect frame of mind, one with Jesus and God. There really is no possibility that those who did not call on Jesus and through him the promises, having never experienced the adoption, the “recieving of the “token of adoptive spirit”, and the full adoption through the event of the Twinkling, to be present in an area with out pain and suffering. The pat follows logic. Investigating the term “heaven” and it’s different means will help to some degree. Remembering that the authors of the Bible and the translators did not have a clear understanding of what they were seeing or what they were receiving helps us to see the need to keep our “eyes” fixed on the “unseen thing” the reality behind the words. Only with a fixed veiw, framework of this reality, God’s reality can we come to understand the importance of God’s statement “this Way leads to life.
Hi Traveler – I think you’re describing the transformative power of Jesus’ teachings and sacrifice, the hope of resurrection, and the establishment of a divine new order led by the humble and faithful, particularly the 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8). You emphasize reason, faithfulness, and spiritual adoption (Romans 8:15) as essential for life in God’s kingdom, while warning that those who reject Christ face destruction in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). The ‘Twinkling’ (1 Corinthians 15:52) is important in your explanation of the resurrection, where the faithful are transformed.
You have not addressed scriptures I cited as evidence that unbelievers will awaken in a future resurrection and have an opportunity to repent and accept Jesus. Would you agree or do your see their fate as sealed?
For me the best way for me to understand an answer is to respond “yes” or “no” then to followup with an explanation, otherwise sometimes it is difficult to be sure I understood the answer from the explanation. Thanks.
“1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth”
When God sent his son to reconcile humanity, God became the Savior of all. He is the Savior in that he made approach to God possible for any who would come to him. So in this sense God was a savior to those who pursued to gain life. Those who crossed from death to life are reminded that all can come. Remember the nation of Israel were and are a stiff necked people, thinking that they alone were Gods only people.
“1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV”
“Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]”
Actually the call is towards those that “desire”, those that pursue receive the spirit and the coming help of the bride. The prayer goes, “let your kingdom come” those who pursue, are under Gods influence through Jesus.. you know the rest.
“Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV”
The creation, the angels , await the new creations being delivered in the event of the Twinkling when that which is corruptible receives the full compliment of their inheritance and becomes incorruptible, a “new creation”.
“1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV”
The idea was brought up once that maybe we should go on sinning to make God’s forgiveness greater. Of course this was illogical. But 1 peter express’s the logical view that the persecution of those who maintain a firm stand will on inspection glorify God.
(1 Peter 1:3-4) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU. . .
We see that the promise to inherit the earth was now through the resurrection of Jesus reserved in heaven by Jesus taking up his kingship. Mankind outside of Jesus has never been called/invited to come to heaven.
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
(2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) 6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among YOU.
Clearly points out no second chance in a new order for those who do not call on Gods name through Christ.
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
We’ve talked already about the fact that Jesus reconciled us to God with his sacrifice, but we must pursue for the forgiveness of our own sins, as each of us sin’s in his own turn. So the word of the reconciliation, or words explaining the nature of the opportunity needed to be explained.
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
We know that we are the building blocks of a new house of God. Jesus is the corner stone. We just pointed out the word of the reconciliation was to go out.
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
(Romans 11:25-32) . . .For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. 30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.
We know that the “Nation of Israel” were disobedient to such an extent that the kingdom of God was taken from them. We also know that on the rejection of Jesus as king by the Nation, Jesus set about preaching the good news to the “son’s of Israel” Israel having no reference to the “Nation of” but to the offspring of Abraham by frame of mind, now the son’s of Israel by frame of mind. With a long standing pride in their relationship with God, some took more time to realize what was happening in their age, before following Jesus.
In all of these scriptures I see no reference to two “hopes” or two paths to salvation. One still must accept the opportunity of the reconciliation that paid humanity’s debt for Adams sin. Then we must become a footstep, or logical pursuer of the same direction that Jesus did to secure our personal hope of a resurrection result, of return to existence on earth. No where in the Bible is there any promise, of provision, for a new home in Heaven.
Thank you, Traveler, for your thoughtful reflections. I appreciate your emphasis on the necessity of faith and obedience in Christ for salvation. However, I still hold that the Scriptures point to a future resurrection of all—both just and unjust (Acts 24:15)—and that God’s redemptive plan includes an opportunity for unbelievers to come to know Christ in the age to come.
For example, Revelation 22:17 offers a universal invitation: “Let the one who is thirsty come,” which I understand as extending even to those who have not yet believed. Similarly, 1 John 2:2 speaks of Christ as the atoning sacrifice “not only for our sins but also for the sins of the whole world.” These and other passages suggest to me that the door of mercy remains open beyond this present life for those who never truly knew Him.
Would you say that all who died in ignorance of Christ are eternally lost? Or might they, too, be among those who “hear His voice” and “come out” in the resurrection (John 5:28-29)?
I’d be grateful for a simple “yes” or “no” to that question, followed by your thoughts, if you’re willing.
No. “Let those who thirst” action, the water of life came with Jesus and was preached to the ,”sea”, the entire inhabited earth at the time. You are right all will be resurrected, in other words stand before God. We are in the age of judgement. Those who call on God in Jesus name are never judged, those who don’t, are already judged. Those that never knew Jesus are the result of mankind’s actions, not God’s. They live out life with the hopes they entertain. Those that pursue the information that Jesus revealed receive ears to hear eyes to see, through adoptive spirit. People of all the nations have come. With the complete failure of humanities attempts to govern themselves leading to the distorting of the earth. Everyone will learn God is right. Everyone will obviously include those born in the new system, who learn from the witness’s from the old one, I beleive through perfect language.once mankind took control of its fate through Adam and Eve’s actions or more accurately thinking, it was not God’s responsibility to force his will on mankind. So if you now “see” that mankind’s direction leads to some never getting a chance to “live”, you can understand the terrible price Adam’s offspring are paying in there resurrection to judgment. Since they enter the grave already judged, the resurrection to “judgement” simply states the completion of their actions,and responsibility, not Gods.
I am appreciate your earnest reflections and your zeal for the truth of God’s Word. Your emphasis on the preaching of the gospel and the responsibility of mankind in this present age is well noted, and I commend your desire to uphold the righteousness of our Heavenly Father. Allow me, in a spirit of Christian fellowship, to offer some thoughts in response, particularly regarding the fate of those who have died in ignorance of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You rightly note that the “water of life” was offered through our Lord’s ministry and the preaching of the gospel to the nations. Yet, I would humbly submit that the Scriptures reveal a broader scope to God’s merciful plan. In Acts 24:15, we read of a resurrection of both the just and the unjust, which suggests a divine purpose for all mankind to stand before God. Our Lord’s words in John 5:28-29 further affirm that all in their graves shall hear His voice and come forth—some to a resurrection of life, and others to a resurrection of judgment. This judgment, I believe, is not merely a confirmation of past condemnation but an opportunity for enlightenment, repentance and judgement.
The invitation of Revelation 22:17, “Let the one who is thirsty come,” is a precious promise offered by the “(Holy) Spirt and the Bride.” This is the Bride of Christ in heaven in the future, not a missed opportunity in the past. The Apostle John declares in 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the propitiation “not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” This “whole world” must include the billions who, through no fault of their own, have never heard the name of Jesus. Shall we conclude that our just and loving Creator would condemn such ones eternally without granting them a full opportunity to know and accept the ransom sacrifice of His Son? I believe the Scriptures teach otherwise.
In God’s great plan, as I understand it, the Millennial Age—the thousand-year reign of Christ—will be a time of restitution (Acts 3:21). During this period, the knowledge of Jehovah will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea (Isaiah 11:9). Those who died in ignorance, never having had a fair chance to accept Christ, will be raised to learn of Him under the favorable conditions of that kingdom. Their judgment will then be based on their response to the truth, not on their ignorance in this life. Thus, while mankind’s fall through Adam brought death to all, God’s mercy through Christ ensures that all may have an opportunity for life (Romans 5:18-19).
To your point regarding mankind’s responsibility, I fully agree that Adam’s disobedience brought a heavy price upon his offspring. Yet, God’s justice does not hold individuals accountable for what they could not know. Rather, His plan provides for a future time when all will be taught, and each will bear responsibility for their own choices (Ezekiel 18:20). The failure of human governance, as you aptly note, only underscores the necessity of Christ’s kingdom, wherein all will learn that Jehovah’s way is right.
Those who died in ignorance of Christ are not eternally lost. They, too, shall hear His voice in the resurrection and be granted an opportunity to drink of the water of life. This, I believe, is the glorious hope revealed in God’s Word—a hope that magnifies His justice, mercy, and love.
I welcome your further thoughts, dear brother, and pray that we may continue to search the Scriptures together, growing in the knowledge of our Heavenly Father’s perfect plan.
Hi Peter. I’m having trouble.navigating the site . I see the latest comment but when I tape on your answer it takes me to the first. Comment O made. Dah help please, foing this on my phone for now
Travelor – Yes, it is difficult to navigate. In the right panel, you can try clicking on “See More Latest Comments” in red font, just below “Latest Comments” and above “Recent Posts.”
Hi Peter, reading over some of your postsI think the problem lies in the term resurrection
Resurrection just means to stand or have your stand in front of Yahweh. Resurrection has nothing to do with consciousness or the return to life, but is a process by which one’s reword is given according to one’s actions in this system or if one has called on Jesus’s name a reward of a return to life.the information gained as a footstep followers is a seed odor of information leading to life in your mind, to God, but to death if it is ignored or absent.
The path is narrow and few find it. By this statement along we see the broad path taken by the majority in this system. While I applaud your search for a way to save everyone, it is already laid out by God and is quite clearly. I see that the average person wants so badly that their loved ones be able to have another chance that the burden of the realization that it’s not up to God may be more than they can carry. I beleive that is why the witness’s and many religions have given in and backed off making this clear. Who can say how much still needs to be hidden.
Hi Traveler – I appreciate your thoughtful message and your obvious desire to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). May I kindly offer a few scriptural thoughts in response?
You mentioned that the resurrection is simply to “stand” before Yahweh, not necessarily a return to consciousness or life. However, the Scriptures speak of resurrection (anastasis in Greek) quite plainly as a raising up from death—a restoration of life, not merely a judgment scene.
Jesus Himself said:
“The hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth…” (John 5:28–29)
Surely, those “in the graves” are unconscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10), and for them to “hear” and “come forth” implies a return to conscious life. This agrees with Jesus’ promise to Martha that Lazarus would “rise again,” not merely stand in judgment, but return to life (John 11:23–25).
You also mentioned that the path is narrow and few find it. I completely agree—the high calling to be part of the Bride of Christ is indeed a narrow way, requiring full consecration, self-denial, and faithfulness unto death (Revelation 2:10). This calling is for the Church now.
However, the Scriptures also declare a broader plan for all mankind in due time. Paul wrote:
“As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22).
And again:
“God our Savior… will have all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3–6).
This is not a universal salvation without repentance, but rather a universal opportunity—after being awakened in the resurrection age—to know the truth, be judged righteously, and choose life. This is the “restitution of all things” spoken by the prophets (Acts 3:21).
So yes, the way is narrow now—for the Church—but the highway of holiness (Isaiah 35:8) will be open to the world in the age to come, under the reign of Christ and His glorified Bride. This is the beauty of the divine plan: a ransom for all, testified in due time.
Hi Peter, once we cross from death to life it states that we are not to be judged and those who don’t cross are already judged. True there will be no test in the thousand years because God does not have a need to, no sin. Yes as Adam we could chose a direction against God but it would result inimmediate death. Every tear is wiped because for the thousand years stain will not be allowed to affect humanities mind.
Hi Traveler – Thanks for some deep thoughts. I enjoyed looking up some of the scriptures I think you had in mind:
John 5:24 “- “Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life”.
John 3:18 – “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already…”
Revelation 20:4–6, mentions that the saints reign with Christ for a thousand years during a time of peace and righteousness, with Satan bound and unable to deceive the nations
Revelation 21:4 – “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain…”
Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8:10 state that God will write His law on their minds and hearts
I enjoy your manner of reply,very patient and loving. I beleive that the grasp of the level of suffering in this system should help us realize that allowing it to happen again in another system would be cruel, illogical. I visited a hospital wing for kids with cancer recently. Just walking down the long hall leading to it as parents with their children in wheelchairs holding stuffed animals was to much. What a kingdom of Christ’s new order would be like if those parents had to watch their kids fail and die in the next life would be like, well, just a small thought. The question is well answered in this system.
Good point. Let me suggest the possibility that in the future paradise kingdom on earth, which we can call “another system,” the outcome would be much more favorable for resurrected humanity, because the Truths of God’s righeous kingdome will be so clear, that even a fool would understand.
Isaiah 35:8: (ESV) And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray.
The Truth on this Way of Holiness will be so clear that even fools shall not go astray.
Once the blindness is removed after Satan is bound (restrained) during the 1,000 years (see Revelation 20:2), everyone will know God and the gospel message. At that time and in that kingdom on earth, the Scriptures say:
John 1:9: (NASB) This was the true Light (Jesus) that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. The fulfilment of this scripture must be in the future because every person has not yet been enlightened.
Once the veil of blindness, ignorance, superstition and deception is removed, mankind will be ready and anxious to learn all about God’s righteous principles in His future kingdom on earth.
Isaiah 29:18,24: In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who complained will learn doctrine.
Isaiah 26:9: …For when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 11:9-10: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse (Jesus), who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek him, and his resting place shall be glorious.
Micah 4:1-2: Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Learning will come from the house of the God of Jacob (Israel). Out of Zion…from Jerusalem will the Lord speak and teach.
Jeremiah 31:33-34: (KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 8:11: None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, Know the LORD, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
The idea that even a fool could follow addresses the differing levels of intelligence in the new “system”. No one is taught by his brother shows the result of the “Twinkling” and it’s clearing of the eyes of the great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses of what? Well the answered conclusion of the old system of Satan. Jesus and the 144,000 “bought from the earth” a reference to our group of beings made of earth, humanity as a whole, will teach us as a newly formed awareness above us, new Jerusalem. Thinking that those who stood against or those who just decided to not call on the name of God and his son, is a statement of a second asking of the outcome of this old system. There is a natural condition to “our savior” as a statement that leaves no room for those causing the need to be saved, to also be saved by second chance or other means. Lose of life was set clearly out in the first place, in the day that you eat, you will die. If you beleive in him you will be preserved alive, live. Those that make it into the new system need never die because they no longer “sin”. This is not a second try kingdom for those left outside of God’s Way. Love means logic in God’s Way leading to life must stand alone. Against other options.
Hi Traveler. There is always a LOT to unpack in your responses. You are always pulling from various Bible verses and concepts to weave a story and an answer. It is fun to try to look up and match the verses you are alluding to. Let me focus on for me what is the meat of your answer. You are making the point that there are NO second chances. God’s love is expressed through a logical, consistent system of justice and salvation. Choosing God’s way (through faith in Christ) is the only path to life, with no alternative routes.
Yes, I agree, except with your limitation that mankinds only opportunity for eternal life is to accept Jesus NOW as their Savior in this life before the resurrection. Or at least you are saying that if they did not take advantage of a clear opportunity in this life, they are FINISHED. It is over for them. No future opportunity. This presumes that God is judging mankind now. The denominational Christian world agrees with you on this, even though at the same time they talk about FUTURE judgement.
Revelation 20 (NASV95)
11 ¶ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Why can this judgment not be based on thier progress and behavior during the 1,000 years?
I would like to repost what I provided on June 12 which affirms that unbeleivers will have a future opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior.
I take the verses below to mean that God will have a special heavenly salvation for beleivers, but that he also has a salvation plan for the rest of the world. This makes sense since 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV and 1 Tim 2:4 says, God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
Hi Travelor. None of your posts are in the spam folder. I am sorry I missed recent posts. The last post I have from you starts “Hi Petter, sorry I’ve been very busy…”
I am so glad I more or less stumbled on this site. It is interesting to note that there are still those out there who do not realize that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a splinter group from the IBSA. This mostly comes from people reading the JW literature and seeing this as the actual history of JW. Websites like this should set the record straight. If they care to take a look and learn.
The us dollar or Federal reserve note its value will be wiped out mostly this will cause a lot of people to go homeless and worse. the only way people in this world will make is the love of God. and the love of People. I am a anointed Jehovah’s witness please take this seriously. store up small amounts of supplies. over the next six months. Bible studies will be done in the home for most people during the time of our next world wide sickness. depend on Christ and Jehovah in prayer to guide you all to make good decisions. if you have give and it will be given you. get out of false religion thinking. but truth in your mind. May the love of our lord Jesus Christ and Jehovah be with you all please pray for healing of human kind and our earth.
I am nearing 60 and was born, raised, and spent most of my life as a jW. Only in the last few years have my eyes been opened. I have written several articles and was wondering if you were interested. They are found here: http://da.getmyip.com/PDF/Ramblings
Thanks. The kingdom of God is what we look forward to: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Rev 21:4 AV
Kingdom of God was present when Jesus was alive. He gave the upward calls message, present yourself, with your power of reason. He laid out the path of reason, in steps of reason. This is why those of the right frame of mind, the true Jew became footstep followers and in doing so we’re removed from the nation of Israel. Yes no Jews left in the Nation. Once you realize that in reality and the Bible frame of mind is everything, you can approach the “Great cloud of witnesses and understand the “Twinkling “.
Hi Peter. The Twinkling is an event in our future. Approach grasping it this Way. Lost approved frame of mind in the garden and the inheritance from the Father, God,of a complete quantity of active force, holy spirit. It’s this inheritance that gave mental capacity to acquire and exercise oneness of mind with our Father.
So we now need to make our minds over, UP. How can we do this? Well Jesus “reconciled ” humanity in relation to God by delivering the ransom for our Father, God. This means we can again approach God and ask to be forgiven our own personal sin so we can enter a adoption as children of our Father. So again we can make our minds over, UP, using the now given “token” of inherited active force/spirit, given on adoption. Jesus showed us a “WAY” to use this force on what was described as the UPward path,or to heed the UPward call.
This UPward path is taken by following the steps of reason Jesus revealed. This process of acquiring a oneness of mind with Jesus and our Father through progress UP the path is headed towards the full adoption at the event called tht “Twinkling”.
We see now in a “hazy outline” so we are called the ” great cloud of witnesses “. At the Twinkling, we receive our full inheritance of active force with its mind expanding capacity. This change in our nature allows us to fully comprehend/see Jesus and be seen by Jesus. Jesus “arrives in the “clouds” or minds of the great cloud of witnesses, the Twinkling event. We can assume it’s described this way because of the comparison between the event and the coming awarenesses from our Father.
The description you provided appears to reference several biblical concepts and scriptures, particularly from the New Testament, while incorporating some interpretive or theological language that may not directly quote specific verses but alludes to them. Below, I’ll identify the key scriptural connections based on the themes and phrases in your description, focusing on the Bible (using a standard translation like the New International Version or King James Version for reference).
Key Themes and Corresponding Scriptures:
The Twinkling Event:
The phrase “Twinkling” likely refers to the event described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (NIV)
This passage speaks of a future transformation of believers, often associated with the resurrection or rapture, where mortal bodies are changed into imperishable ones. Your description of the “Twinkling” as a future event involving a change in nature and receiving a “full inheritance” aligns closely with this scripture.
Lost Frame of Mind in the Garden:
The reference to losing an “approved frame of mind in the garden” points to the Fall of Man in Genesis 3, where Adam and Eve’s disobedience resulted in separation from God and the loss of their original state of harmony and communion with Him. This is implied rather than directly quoted, but the concept of losing an “inheritance” of oneness with God fits this narrative.
Inheritance of Active Force/Holy Spirit:
The idea of an “inheritance” of the Holy Spirit connects to several New Testament passages:
Ephesians 1:13-14:
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession…” (NIV)
This speaks of the Holy Spirit as a “deposit” or “token” (as you mentioned) of the future full inheritance, which aligns with your description of receiving an active force upon adoption.
Romans 8:15-17 also ties in:
“The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship… and co-heirs with Christ…” (NIV)
This supports the idea of adoption as children of God and receiving an inheritance.
Jesus’ Reconciliation and Ransom:
The description of Jesus “reconciling” humanity through a “ransom” directly refers to scriptures like:
1 Timothy 2:5-6:
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people…” (NIV)
Colossians 1:19-20:
“For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things… by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” (NIV)
These passages explain how Jesus’ sacrifice restores the relationship between humanity and God, enabling believers to approach God for forgiveness and adoption.
Making Our Minds Over, UP:
The concept of transforming or renewing the mind is found in Romans 12:2:
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (NIV)
Your description of “making our minds over, UP” aligns with this call to spiritual transformation and aligns with achieving oneness with God’s will.
The Upward Path/Call:
The “UPward path” or “UPward call” directly echoes Philippians 3:13-14:
“…Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” (NIV)
The “heavenward” or “upward call” (as translated in some versions) matches your description of a path of spiritual progress toward oneness with God and Jesus.
Great Cloud of Witnesses:
The phrase “great cloud of witnesses” is a direct reference to Hebrews 12:1:
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us…” (NIV)
Your description ties this to believers seeing “in a hazy outline” and progressing toward the Twinkling, suggesting a connection between the witnesses (faithful believers) and the future transformation.
Seeing Jesus in the Clouds:
The imagery of Jesus “arriving in the clouds” connects to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven… and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air…” (NIV)
Additionally, Revelation 1:7 states:
“Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him…” (NIV)
Your description of Jesus arriving in the “clouds” or minds of the witnesses may be an interpretive blend of these verses with the idea of spiritual enlightenment or transformation at the Twinkling.
Seeing in a Hazy Outline:
The phrase “we see now in a hazy outline” likely alludes to 1 Corinthians 13:12:
“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (NIV)
This verse speaks of incomplete understanding now, contrasted with full comprehension in the future, which fits your description of the Twinkling as a moment of receiving full mental capacity and seeing Jesus clearly.
Analysis and Summary:
Well said. The truth is hidden because it’s in the langauge, the conceptual images that inspired the words. Remember that the expressions recorded were a conversation for those who are given eyes to see and ears to hear by God through Jesus revealed steps of logic. The author often not actually understanding what he was recording because it’s meaning was meant for ears generations later.
Keeping your eye on the unseen things is key. Humanity was meant to have continued existence by pursue a certain direction, as God also does. While there is much to that statement it connects simply further up the path. Adam and Eve lost their relationship with their Father. God knew of this possibility when he shared information that allowed for free will. To re-enter the family relationship has always been the goal set for Adam’s and Eves children, humanity.
It is believed by meany that Jesus was sent to save the entire inhabited earth. What isn’t understood is he was, just not as they’ve envisioned.The Bible says Satan roamed about in earth. I always thought that was a strange way to put it. Then I realized we in slaves form are given a permanent house on crossing from death to life legally in our belief. We are dust/earth but are existing in our body’s as in a tent. It becomes a home with the promise of “the first resurrection “. Then Jesus returns to his Father and asks for the spirit of understanding/helper to be poured out to fill us with new awarenesses making our house a mansion. Each person in crossing from death to life receives a token of adoptive spirit which mean that the are no longer dead but now inhabit the earth, their body. the inheritance promised to Abraham’s offspring to inherit the earth. We are the offspring of Abraham mentally. So the entire inhabited earth.
The process of the return to, or I would say of the garden to its original state is clear in that we are God’s field under cultivation as adopted children.
The truth is simple and makes your paths straight, one step at a time.
Hi Travel – Your comments contain several concepts and phrases that appear to allude to various Bible verses, particularly from the New Testament, with some references to Old Testament themes. As it may be an additonal blessing to our readers, below, I’ll identify the likely Bible verses or passages being alluded to, based on your language and ideas presented, while keeping the response concise and focused.
“Eyes to see and ears to hear”
This phrase directly echoes Jesus’ teachings about spiritual perception, often used in the context of parables.
Possible Verses:
Matthew 13:16 – “But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.”
Mark 4:9 – “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
Deuteronomy 29:4 (Old Testament precursor) – “But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.”
The comment suggests that divine revelation through Jesus enables understanding of hidden truths, aligning with these verses.
“Keeping your eye on the unseen things”
This likely refers to focusing on spiritual or eternal realities rather than temporary, material ones.
Possible Verse:
2 Corinthians 4:18 – “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.”
The emphasis on pursuing an eternal direction connects to this idea of prioritizing spiritual truths.
“Adam and Eve lost their relationship with their Father”
This alludes to the Fall in Genesis, where disobedience severed humanity’s direct communion with God.
Possible Verses:
Genesis 3:8-24 – Describes Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden, symbolizing the loss of their relationship with God.
Romans 5:12 – “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.”
The comment frames humanity’s goal as restoring this relationship, a common biblical theme.
“Jesus was sent to save the entire inhabited earth”
This points to Jesus’ redemptive mission, though the comment reinterprets it in a spiritual or metaphorical sense.
Possible Verses:
John 3:17 – “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”
1 John 4:14 – “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.”
The phrase “inhabited earth” may also connect to Revelation 12:9 (see below for Satan reference), where the earth is a domain of spiritual conflict.
“Satan roamed about in earth”
This directly references Satan’s activity on earth, often depicted as a tempter or adversary.
Possible Verse:
Job 1:7 – “The Lord said to Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the Lord, ‘From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.’”
1 Peter 5:8 – “Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”
The comment’s phrasing suggests a metaphorical view of humanity’s earthly existence as influenced by spiritual forces.
“From death to life”
This phrase reflects the transition from spiritual death to eternal life through faith in Jesus.
Possible Verses:
John 5:24 – “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
Ephesians 2:1-5 – “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins… But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ.”
The comment ties this to belief and adoption into God’s family.
“Our body’s as in a tent”
The imagery of the body as a temporary dwelling is a common biblical metaphor.
Possible Verse:
2 Corinthians 5:1 – “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.”
“Spirit of understanding/helper”
This likely refers to the Holy Spirit, described as a helper or advocate.
Possible Verses:
John 14:26 – “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
John 16:13 – “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”
The “mansion” imagery may also loosely connect to John 14:2 (“My Father’s house has many rooms”), though the comment uses it metaphorically for spiritual growth.
“Inheritance promised to Abraham’s offspring”
This alludes to the covenant with Abraham, extended to believers as his spiritual heirs.
Possible Verses:
Galatians 3:29 – “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Romans 4:13 – “It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.”
“God’s field under cultivation”
This imagery portrays believers as a field being cultivated by God, a biblical metaphor for spiritual growth.
Possible Verse:
1 Corinthians 3:9 – “For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.”
The restoration of the “garden” (Eden) aligns with themes of renewal, as in Revelation 21:1-5 (new heaven and new earth).
“The first resurrection”
This directly references the resurrection of believers, a key eschatological concept.
Possible Verse:
Revelation 20:5-6 – “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.”
“Makes your paths straight”
This echoes wisdom literature and teachings about divine guidance.
Possible Verse:
Proverbs 3:6 – “In all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.”
Matthew 3:3 (quoting Isaiah 40:3) – “A voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”
The comment uses this to emphasize simplicity and clarity in following God’s truth.
Summary
Your comments weave together a tapestry of biblical themes, including spiritual perception (Matthew 13:16), eternal focus (2 Corinthians 4:18), the Fall (Genesis 3), redemption through Jesus (John 3:17), the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), Abraham’s inheritance (Galatians 3:29), and eschatological hope (Revelation 20:5-6). You interpret these in a metaphorical, spiritualized way, emphasizing adoption into God’s family and the transformation of believers as the “inhabited earth.”
I have to ask, are you using AI to respond? While tone relates to sound or speech, it is a common mistake to beleive language does also. Language relates to the conceptual images behind the words. The Bible states you search the scriptures believing eternal life can be found among them. The problem is it won’t be found unless you “peer” into them. Frame of mind is and was what is important. It must be that the mind using the token gets a “sense” of direction. Meditating on that sensed direction, or a general holding of the information Jesus revealed relating to this direction, will start to add “UP” so at a certain point one can ponder the whole to achieve insight and a conclusion or stand. This process is taking the truth as your own. They Bible points out they go on learning and learning never able to come to an accurate conclusion. My experience is that “they” have no overview, no frame work that allows the logical ordering of the information received in the Bible. While the consideration of adoption goes a long way in explaining this overview it does not explain the deeper things such as why God pursues, or what information shared by God allowed for free will, the asking of a question or how a question exists in the “First” place.
While you evidently connect statements like God’s field under cultivation as a metaphor, in reality we being made of dust are literally being cultivated through mental manipulation. Much as Adam would have manipulated the growth of say the black mulberry tree.
I think the one thing bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses can agree on is that the 144000 is a government. its the interpretation of wicked slave is what leaders of the watchtower of today they disagree on. so bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses have separated them selves from each other on.
Yes, in Rev 7 we have 144,000 sealed out of the twelve tribes of (spiritual) Israel who are with the lamb on Mount Zion (compare Heb 12:22). In Rev 14, the 144,000 are described as redeemed, virgins, first fruits and are before the throne of God. These virgins become the bride of Christ (Rev 21:2), the heavenly government on the future Paradise Earth. Rutherford created a new organization called the Jehovah’s Witnesses and changed the doctrines. The Bible Students separated and continued with the original belief as independent congregations with no central control from a governing body and were then called evil slaves by the new organization. Do you have any further thoughts to share or questions? Feel fee to share.
Peter K. (admin) { Traveler, Thank you, dear brother, for your kind and generous words. Your spirit of humility and desire for truth shines through each of your messages,... }
Traveler { Peter, as always I appreciate the way in which you patiently respond. You are right I beleive we both seek the same goal. Although I... }
Peter K. (admin) { Traveler, Thank you again for your thoughtful words and for the heartfelt way you express your hope in God’s plan. I rejoice that we share... }
Travel { Sorry about the miss spell and wrong words. I'll try to not send unless I have time to correct. Coffees running out, the days work... }
Traveler { Hi Peter. Strange as it seems, on my phone I have to sort through all our conversations to find your latest after seeing it in... }
Peter K. (admin) { Thank you for raising these important points. I’ll try to address them carefully. The Cross: While many associate it with Christianity, its origins and use... }
Well all are stand in the russurection all thise in a memorial tomb hear his voice and return to existence. But those left in the grathe grave who also are receiving their reward from the resurrection process, ar e handed int Jesus keeping to await the coming destruction. While I agree all are resurrected, the Bible is also very clear not all return to life, consciousness.
As for the bride, you seem to hold them as in some way other than servants of the greater number. Jesus himself if a servant to the greater number in his service to his Father. The witness’s come near to worshiping the 144,000, if they haven’t now. Jesse washed the feet to point out that ther is only one great teacher, on God to worship. It must be that those who are least are the balance or we return to a old system. Again the last resrrction result takes from the grave to be cast into destruction, no second chance.
Hi Traveler,
Thank you for your continued engagement and for sharing your convictions so sincerely. I can see that you are deeply concerned with upholding what you believe is God’s clear standard of justice—and I respect that.
If I may, I’d like to respond to a few of your points—not to argue, but to offer a perspective rooted in the broader scriptural testimony and in harmony with the beautiful outlines of God’s plan that unfold throughout the Scriptures.
* Resurrection Means a Return to Life, Not Merely Judgment
You mentioned that resurrection “has nothing to do with consciousness or the return to life,” but is rather a standing for judgment. However, the Scriptures speak plainly of resurrection (anastasis) as a rising again from death—a restoration of life and consciousness.
“The hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice, and shall come forth…” — John 5:28–29
Clearly, to “come forth” from the graves implies a return to living existence, since the dead “know not anything” (Ecclesiastes 9:5). Jesus was not merely describing a figurative standing before God, but a literal awakening from death—some to life, and some to judgment.
This same truth is echoed in Acts 24:15:
“There shall be a resurrection of the just and unjust.”
Both classes are brought forth. The “unjust” are not raised merely for destruction, but for judgment—a righteous trial, with opportunity for correction and restoration during the Messianic reign.
* The Narrow Way Now vs. the Highway of Holiness to Come
Yes, the path to the high calling—the Bride of Christ—is indeed narrow, and few find it now (Matthew 7:14). These are the overcomers who walk in the Master’s footsteps, suffering with Him now to reign with Him later (2 Timothy 2:12; Revelation 3:21). That calling is precious and exclusive.
But we must not conflate the high calling with the general resurrection promised to all mankind. The Apostle Paul writes:
“As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order…” — 1 Corinthians 15:22–23
This speaks not just of the Church, but of all mankind, each in his appointed time. The “order” here reflects God’s wise sequence: first the Church (the firstfruits), and afterward the world during the age of restitution (Acts 3:21).
* God’s Plan Includes Opportunity—Not Universal Salvation
To clarify: the hope set before mankind in the next age is not a second chance, but a first real opportunity, under ideal conditions, without the blinding influence of Satan (Revelation 20:2–3). The ransom provided by Christ is indeed “for all” (1 Timothy 2:6), to be testified in due time—not all at once.
Even those who “did not know” are not judged with finality now (John 12:47–48). Jesus says:
“The word that I have spoken will judge him in the last day.”
That day—the Millennium—is the time of trial for the world, when knowledge of God will fill the earth (Isaiah 11:9), and the willing may walk upon the highway of holiness (Isaiah 35:8–10).
* On the 144,000 and the Spirit of Servitude
You rightly emphasize humility and servanthood. Jesus, though Lord of all, “took upon him the form of a servant” (Philippians 2:7). Likewise, the 144,000—though called to reign with Christ—are also servants to the world in the age to come, as priests and kings (Revelation 20:6), helping mankind rise from sin and death.
They are not worshiped. In fact, Revelation 19:10 shows John being corrected for bowing to an angel: “See thou do it not… Worship God.” The faithful Bride of Christ will reflect the same humility, pointing always to the Father and to the Lamb.
* A Harmonious Plan—Justice, Mercy, and Truth
God has a plan that is a balance of justice and mercy—not arbitrary destruction, nor universal salvation, but a ransom for all (Romans 5:18–19), and a fair trial for each soul in due time. Those who will not learn righteousness under Christ’s beneficent reign will indeed be cut off in the second death (Acts 3:23), but not before they receive full opportunity to choose life.
Thank you again, Traveler, for your earnest concern for truth. I believe we share a love for God’s justice and righteousness—and that we both long to uphold His holiness. May our continued discussion reflect His Spirit of grace and clarity as we “search the Scriptures” together (John 5:39).
Warm Christian regards,
Peter K
I’m not sure why you are not connecting coming forth with standing before God. This does not mean they are conscious. The judged clearly are left in the grave. They are not forgiven their personal sin even though they were reconciled and given the chance of a hope before they enter the grave. Yes as you say and I’ve repeated, resurrection can mean a return to life, but as in a car wreck some live ,some, die, but it’s still a car wreck. It is only the memorial thombs that are emptied, the grave is not. The grave is given into Jesus keeping and those in it remain judged. You obviously are well versed in the scriptures I really fail to see how you can’t see the two clear distinctions of a resurrection outcome. The first as in Jesus and the twinkly, the second those in the grave left in the grave by resurrection reward. The grave and those in it are not destroyed until the end of the thousand years. I think we may be at an honest impasse. Although I see you think deeply. I will take time to reference those scriptures that lay out that the narrow path leads to a life giving resurrection and the broad way leads to death in the grave, both by the end of this system.
Traveler,
Thank you once again for your thoughtful reply and for continuing this sincere dialogue. I appreciate your clarity and conviction, and I sense your strong desire to honor God’s justice and truth. That is truly commendable.
You’ve raised several important points, and while we may see certain matters from different angles, I believe our shared goal is the same—to rightly divide the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15) and to glorify our Heavenly Father.
You affirmed that those in the memorial tombs will hear His voice and return to existence—a point on which we fully agree. As Jesus said in John 5:28-29, “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth.” This “coming forth” indicates not just a symbolic recognition, but a real reanimation—a return to life and consciousness. It is the unjust as well as the just who are raised, not simply to receive a verdict, but to be given the opportunity to learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9) under the favorable conditions of Christ’s reign.
The thought that some are “left in the grave” while also “resurrected” as a form of judgment may need further scriptural clarification. The grave (sheol/hades) itself is to be emptied (Revelation 20:13), and death and hades are ultimately destroyed (Revelation 20:14). This symbolic destruction of the grave represents the end of Adamic death and the full release of mankind into individual trial under the Messianic Kingdom. The idea of some being “resurrected but still dead” seems inconsistent with the meaning of resurrection (Greek anastasis), which always implies a standing up again from death to life—even if for trial.
It’s important, as you note, that there is no “second chance” in the next age—but most of mankind has never yet had a full, fair first chance for life, due to inherited weakness and the blinding influence of Satan (2 Corinthians 4:4). Christ’s ransom secures the right for all to a fair trial under more favorable conditions in the Kingdom.
Those who remain willfully disobedient, after full enlightenment and opportunity, will indeed be destroyed in the Second Death—eternal extinction. That is justice, tempered by the mercy of a thorough opportunity beforehand (Acts 3:23).
You raise an important and beautiful truth: that Jesus, though Lord, became a servant (Philippians 2:7), and so must all His followers. The 144,000 are not exalted for their own sake, but are “called to serve” as kings and priests (Revelation 20:6), ministering to the world during the restitution age. Their reign is not about dominion, but about uplifting—helping to restore the willing and obedient to perfection. The true Bride of Christ does not seek praise or worship, but—like her Lord—points all glory to the Father.
I would agree with you that any tendency to elevate the 144,000 beyond their rightful role as humble servants would be a grave error. The Lord’s true people must cultivate meekness, humility, and love—seeking to serve, not to rule in pride.
Brother, I believe we share much common ground: a high regard for God’s justice, a recognition of Christ’s ransom as central to all hope, and a longing to uphold the simplicity and depth of Scriptural truth. Though we may understand certain symbols or sequences differently, I am thankful for this exchange and your genuine love for truth.
Let us both continue, as Jesus said, to “search the Scriptures,” and to walk humbly before our God (Micah 6:8), trusting that in His due time, all things will be made clear.
Peter K.
Just one thing while I digest the distance in your thoughts. The nature of the question that we’re raised by Satan and Eve relating to God’s right to decide right and wrong, his sovereignty. Are such that on allowing the question to be asked, this means lived to conclusion, God was bound. God can not destroy any individual until the question is answered, is there a WAY to life apart from God’s WAY? This is why when the memorial tombs are emptied at the Twinkling, what is left sheol, is nessary, to hold those who by their action did not call on Jesus ask for God’s help through Jesus’s name. They remain as, was their free will,,, in mankind’s common grave. When looking at the resurrection and it’s out come, don’t for get that theirs a choice to be made. Eve made it.I have to admit, Another chance has to be on every mind, no man being fit for life. But for the man who stumbles one of the littlest, second chance? That sentence was one of those profound moments that are marked in you mind,,, how much can your brother bare? I finally as a footstep follow under-stand,,,”tread lightly.”
I mean so far(;
Traveler,
Thank you again, sincerely, for your persistence in wrestling with these profound matters of life, justice, and resurrection. Your reverence for the seriousness of God’s government is admirable, and I appreciate the space you’ve allowed for this exchange to be not only scriptural, but also brotherly.
Regarding your latest point—that God’s justice required the full outworking of Satan’s question (whether there’s life apart from God’s way), and that for this reason, He could not destroy individuals before this was answered—I believe there’s deep truth in that. God’s allowance of evil for a time is not weakness, but wisdom. The great lesson of permitted evil is essential to proving the futility of rebellion and the absolute necessity of divine order. This grand object lesson must be fully learned by all intelligent creation.
You emphasize that those who do not call on Jesus remain in the grave, receiving the outcome of their own willful choice. I understand your thought to be that the resurrection reveals—not grants—reward or punishment, and that in some cases, the grave continues to hold them, not because of delay, but as a testimony to their rejection of God’s way.
While I agree that those who ultimately reject God’s arrangement will not be granted life, I would make a distinction: the Scriptures teach that resurrection itself implies an awakening—a return to conscious life, even if only for the purpose of testing, trial, and final judgment. The process of “standing again” (Greek anastasis) is consistently portrayed as a conscious reawakening, not a mere designation of fate.
John 5:28–29 says that “all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth”—both the just and unjust. Coming forth implies awareness and life, however brief or extended. Revelation 20:13–14 speaks of death and hades giving up the dead in them. If these domains give up the dead, and then are themselves destroyed in the lake of fire, there remains no further holding ground. The time of final separation comes after the resurrection, not instead of it.
You rightly remind us that many misunderstand this to mean a “universal salvation,” where consequence is removed. But I would say, the danger is not in overemphasizing opportunity, but in underestimating the rigor of the judgment to come. The resurrection age will not be one of relaxed standards, but of righteous government (Isaiah 26:9), where every individual is judged according to their own deeds (Revelation 20:12), under full enlightenment and absence of Satanic deception (Revelation 20:3).
Those who come forth in the resurrection, and yet remain unrepentant, will face what the Scriptures call the second death—not torment, but extinction (Acts 3:23). The mercy lies not in leniency, but in the opportunity to choose rightly, in a way not possible under the blinding influences of the present evil world (2 Corinthians 4:4).
I wholeheartedly agree with your emphasis that the glorified Bride of Christ must serve in humility. Those chosen to reign with Christ are not elevated for praise, but for service. As Jesus washed the feet of His disciples, so the 144,000 will, in glory, guide and uplift the willing of mankind during the age of restitution (Revelation 20:6; Isaiah 1:26). They are not to be revered or exalted above others, but are servants in the pattern of their Lord. The Kingdom work is restorative, not triumphalist.
Finally, you said, “Another chance must be on every mind… how much can your brother bear?” That moved me. It echoes the mercy and patience we are called to extend to others, even as we uphold the seriousness of truth. If the Gospel reveals anything, it is that divine justice is not cold—it is just. And divine mercy is not indulgent—it is wise.
Let us continue, dear brother, to reason together. We may differ in how we frame some aspects, but if we are both seeking the same God, the same Lord, and the same spirit of truth, we are not far apart.
With sincere thanks,
Peter K.
PS: Check this out: https://www.beyondwatchtower.com/2025/07/26/what-is-the-fate-of-the-wicked/
I mention resurrection has nothing to do with the return to life, I put that badly. Resurrection is a process of standing before God to receive either life, if you are forgiven, calling on Jesus name, or to remain in the grave, judged by your actions in this system. Jesus in recieving Kingship over God’s kingdom, in heaven and Earth, is given authority over the grave, holding those in it who are awaiting the fulfillment of the judgment in the lake of fire.The passages, ” if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, so where will the unrightous man make a showing,” and “the reward of sin is death”, along with the statement that those who do not call on christ are already judged gives a clear picture of the two outcomes. It is this lack of connection between the two outcomes of the one process, resurrection that allows calming of the general population of let’s use Christianities name , “lay people” or those who have no clear framework to use that continues this idea everyone gets saved, there is no real consequence to our actions in this system, idea. I believe your depth is by far the exception in those holding this train of thought.
I’ve gain a great respect for your ability to carry on a vigorous consideration, while cultivating a relationship of brotherly love and respect. I struggle to achieve a ability of patience that’s as healthy as yours,at times.
Having found the UPward path and the framework structure it forms, I “see” that being set free is something I and most people have grasp in an understanding far from the real experience. I am trying to come to terms with association with a population of followers on every level, as I must. Oh “see”, every “eye” will see, or every one must know can only be related to those who call on the name of Jesus,which is an active role. And who receive eyes to see and ears to hear. The majority on the broad path remain blind followers, their senses dulled. So the entire INHABITED earth is saved, which fits the Few it says make it into the new system. It’s two in the morning here sorry if I ramble.
I’ve been
Traveler,
Thank you again for your sincere and persistent engagement. I can see that you are striving to harmonize scriptural teachings with the broader principles of divine justice—a noble and commendable effort.
You raise again a distinction between those in the memorial tombs and those you describe as being “left in the grave,” suggesting that some do not return to consciousness. I believe our difference stems, not from disagreement about judgment or accountability, but from the interpretation of what resurrection fully entails.
I beleive that the resurrection (Greek: anastasis) always implies a rising up from death—a return to life and consciousness, even if it is for trial and testing. John 5:28–29 clearly states, “all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth”—not just the righteous, but the unjust also. This shows resurrection as the means by which both classes are brought forth—not merely to receive a verdict, but to come under Christ’s reign, where they can learn righteousness (Isaiah 26:9).
You suggest that the “grave is not emptied,” and that some remain in it to await destruction. Please notice that Revelation 20:13 says, “the sea gave up the dead… and death and hades gave up the dead which were in them.” Perhaps this shows that all who have died are awakened for judgment. Revelation 20:14 then tells us that death and hades themselves are cast into the lake of fire—symbolizing their complete and final destruction. It seems that there is no further “holding place” after this resurrection—only a righteous judgment according to individual deeds under Christ’s kingdom. However, I do agree that those who reject Christ after a resurrection opportunity will be eternally destroyed (anniahlation / out of existance) and perhaps that is what you meant and our difference here is only in semantics.
I appreciate your emphasis on consequences and the seriousness of God’s moral government. However, I would gently emphasize the beauty and mercy of the Divine Plan. God’s justice does not preclude opportunity; rather, His justice demands that every man be judged individually—apart from inherited weakness—under the clearer light of Christ’s reign (Acts 17:31).
You mentioned the powerful verse, “If the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, where shall the ungodly and sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:18). This certainly reinforces the seriousness of God’s moral standards.
Let me suggest that this verse refers primarily to the Church class now being called out—those on the “narrow way” (Matt. 7:14) who are striving for the prize of the high calling (Phil. 3:14). Their salvation is indeed “with difficulty,” because it involves full consecration, sacrifice, and overcoming in the present evil world—while Satan still blinds and opposes (2 Cor. 4:4).
So if even this faithful class is being tried so severely now, I suggest that Peter’s rhetorical question emphasizes the weight of accountability that will come upon the ungodly in their own time of trial—during the Millennial Age. They will not appear in favorable judgment unless they respond to the light of Christ when it shines upon them.
I believe that this is not a condemnation to destruction before opportunity, but a sober warning that God’s standards do not change. The Millennial judgment will not be a relaxed trial, but a righteous and thorough one. Only those who respond to Christ’s reign with obedience and repentance will come through to life. The rest, having rejected light under ideal conditions, will face the Second Death (Acts 3:23).
So yes, the verse is a warning—but not to deny resurrection and opportunity to the unjust. Rather, it affirms that all salvation—whether of the Church now or the world later—requires heart-deep transformation and submission to God’s will.
In closing, you made an insightful comment: that “every eye will see” must mean those who actively respond to Jesus. I agree. While all will be raised and enlightened, only those who “see and hear” in the heart—through faith and obedience—will receive life everlasting. The highway of holiness is open to all, but only the willing will walk upon it (Isaiah 35:8).
Let us keep reasoning together, holding fast to Scripture, and walking in humility. If we differ in some points, I believe we do so in a spirit of brotherly sincerity and shared reverence for God’s Word.
Peter K.
The scripture fit to set things straight. So I’ll try to lay out a diligent graph os the grave and it’s conditions from Adam on. I think that “standing up” or”standing before God” have long suffered from poor translation based on poorer understanding. But tracesing the grave, and the process of ressurection and its effect, I have always thought to be rather straight forward. If I’m mistaken we’ll see. I find this resurrection issue to me very similar to discussing the Theory of the trinity, with people who have no idea that it’s already historical fact that it’s not in the Bible and was never meant to address three individual identities. SO ITS STIIL INT THE NANE OF THE father, the Son and the Holy ghost,,, instead of inheritance name of the Father, the son,,, in holy spirit. Even though the know some about adoption.
Now I don’t think this is the case with you. You use scripture. Where I use over veiw and opinion thinking after my 50 odd years of pursuit that any, I admit I expect few, my life lesson that just the basic logic of right and wrong should win the day. I think you deserve my respect and effort. I’ll try to raise to the occasion. Thank you for your patience.
Traveler,
Thanks for the reply. I understand your view that some are judged in the grave and never raised. I agree that some may reject truth even after resurrection and face the second death (Heb. 10:26–29). But isn’t that different from being condemned without ever awakening?
If “God wills all to be saved and come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Tim. 2:4), wouldn’t He at least give that opportunity to those who died in ignorance?
I hope the recent article I posted is helpful “What is the fate of the wicked?”
https://www.beyondwatchtower.com/2025/07/26/what-is-the-fate-of-the-wicked/
First, I apologize for the lack of editing and spelling errors as I use my phone, not having time to sit at my laptop lately.
Before I dive into trashing the grave, it struck me that if as you are putting forward every person awakened perfect from death must have a fully aware right to choose, then everything recorded after Adam and Eve’s fall would be pointless suffering. Each new birth could have been alive and perfect to stand or fall as you suggest.
In all of this I beleive that you miss that God is all knowing,i.e, he has no beginning, and that he can be found on many levels by his own direction. Just a couple of thoughts for I suspect quite some time as I try to do your train of thought, a just consideration in tracing the grave.
[Note from Peter K to Traveler: I could not understand these comments and made minor corrections of typos hoping to capture the actual thought. Let me know if I misrepresented your thoughts, but try to be more careful in your wording. Thanks.]
Traveler, thank you for continuing the conversation. I’ve read your comments from July 28 carefully, and I can see your sincerity and concern for biblical truth. However, I believe a key element of God’s plan is being overlooked—the larger purpose of the resurrection and the future judgment.
You speak as though the current life is the only probation for mankind, but Scripture points to a future time of awakening and opportunity. The grave—Sheol, Hades is the unconscious sleep of death from which all will be raised (John 5:28-29). And that awakening is not to immediate reward or destruction, but to education, correction, and opportunity under the righteous reign of Christ.
The trials of this present age—its confusion, sin, and death—are the tragic result of the fall. But God, in His wisdom, allowed this for a purpose: that mankind might learn the bitter consequences of sin and be better prepared to accept righteousness when His kingdom is established on earth. That kingdom will be the true day of judgment (Acts 17:31)—not a day of vengeance, but a time in which all will come to understand God’s ways clearly, free from Satan’s deceptions.
You say justice demands that judgment is final now, but is that justice—eternal loss for those who never truly knew Christ or had a fair chance? Or is it justice that every knee shall bow and every tongue confess (Isaiah 45:23; Philippians 2:10-11)—not by force, but through enlightenment and free will?
Yes, some will choose rebellion even in that perfect age. They will be judged accordingly, and the second death awaits them—not torment, but annihilation. But most, I believe, will rejoice in their opportunity and choose life. That is the mercy and wisdom of our God.
In Christ,
Peter K
You use fair as if it is some how disconnected from free will. The truth has been revealed to the entire earth, in terms we all understand. If you call on christ you have hope, you are not judged, your sins are forgiven. If you chose not to, you remain judged, it says. The kindow of God, on earth, was handed to Jesus as king. It was already on earth. It’s followers are acquiring his adoptive spirit with its increased mental capacity. To stand up, does as we’ve talked about, not require you are conscious. The test of the large population of those enlightened by the Twinkling is the last option to be tried by humanity. As God envisioned it will lead to life, after mankind has lost that hope at Armageddon. “fair” seems far out of touch with cause and effect related to the suffering in the veiw you’re putting forward.
We need to finish establishing the truth purpose of “resurrection”
Seems to me that with the veiw you are working with. “White washed Graves” might have been very much an over reaction on Jesus part. Jesus was sent to show us a “way” out of the grave because if you continued living according to the world you would die without hope. As always I enjoy you sincere effort to hold this veiw.
Traveler,
Thank you once again for your heartfelt engagement. Your sincerity and deep concern for God’s justice and sovereignty are evident, and I appreciate the effort you’re making to grapple with these weighty matters, even amid the constraints of typing from a phone.
You mentioned that “fair seems far out of touch with cause and effect,” and that the truth has already been revealed to the entire earth. Yet I wonder—has the truth really been made clear to all, in a form they can understand and act upon, without deception, confusion, or inherited weakness? Scripture tells us plainly that “the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving” (2 Cor. 4:4), and that Christ came as a “ransom for all, to be testified in due time” (1 Tim. 2:6). That “due time” is not the present for most of mankind.
While I agree that those who hear and respond to Christ now are forgiven and not judged (John 5:24), that is not the full extent of God’s redemptive plan. You spoke of the Kingdom as already present—and yes, the Jesus’ faithful followers represent Christ’s kingdom on earth now—but the Scriptures also speak of a coming worldwide Kingdom, when “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9). That time has not yet arrived.
You asked: why permit thousands of years of suffering if people could be raised perfect and free to choose? That’s a fair question. But consider: the permission of evil has been necessary to teach humanity the bitter fruits of sin and self-rule. The divine plan is not merely about restoring what was lost, but about establishing permanent, heart-deep loyalty to righteousness through experience. This present evil age serves as a dark backdrop against which the glory of Christ’s Kingdom will shine more brightly—and more persuasively—when it is revealed.
You referenced “standing up” not requiring consciousness. Yet the Greek word for resurrection—anastasis—literally means “to stand again,” implying an awakening from death. John 5:28–29 affirms that “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and come forth.” That is not a metaphor or designation of fate—it is an actual reawakening to life for the purpose of testing, learning, and judgment.
I wholeheartedly agree with your concern that the doctrine of universal opportunity has been watered down in many circles. But we must not let that abuse cloud the actual scriptural teaching: that God has planned a future age in which Christ will reign in righteousness, and all will have the opportunity to learn, repent, and choose life. This is not a lax trial. It will be strict and just. Those who persist in disobedience, even under perfect conditions, will face the second death (Acts 3:23; Rev. 20:15). But God’s character demands that all be given a chance under fair conditions.
Regarding “whitewashed tombs,” I see no overreaction in Jesus’ words. He was exposing hypocrisy—those who appeared righteous but were inwardly corrupt. That same principle will apply in the Kingdom age: outward conformity will not suffice. God will judge the heart.
Finally, I resonate with your statement that “we need to finish establishing the true purpose of resurrection.” Indeed we do. The resurrection is not merely a sorting mechanism—it is a restorative process. Not everyone will pass that test, but all must be given the opportunity. As Paul said, “there shall be a resurrection of the just and the unjust” (Acts 24:15). Only then can every knee bow and every tongue confess, not under coercion, but from enlightened conviction (Phil. 2:10–11).
Let us continue to reason together, keeping Scripture as our guide. I appreciate your brotherly tone and the depth of your thought.
I beleive you are sincere. In the scriptures you use I see a clear picture of the question being ask and answered, once, not twice. While you see a set of systems where mankind is forgiven. I beleive I will have to produce a more in depth exploration if we are to arrive together at a common conclusion. Thank you for your motivating patience and example. I would point out that those who are given ears and eyes are not blinded, but preserved alive,existing in memorial thombs. Where those who are judged are simply in the grave. But to be fair I think we’ve covered t g is thought. I will set to the task. Your brother in pursuit.
Traveler,
Thank you again, brother. I appreciate your determination to explore these matters more deeply.
You’re right—the question of resurrection deserves careful thought. While I recognize your view that the process involves a single, decisive outcome, I believe Scripture reveals a broader purpose: not only to declare judgment but to provide the opportunity for education, correction, and transformation under Christ’s reign.
The “memorial tombs” you mentioned will indeed be opened (John 5:28–29), and those awakened will “stand again”—not to repeat this present life, but to walk a new path under righteous conditions. It is in that “world to come” (Heb. 2:5) that many, for the first time, will see clearly and choose freely.
I agree with your commitment to truth, and I look forward to your further exploration. May our shared pursuit lead us closer to the full counsel of God.
In brotherly respect,
Peter K.
Hi Peter. I’ve revisited my past considerations, which I probably should have done soon. I’ll post a “heads up” short conclusion here now and the lengthier consideration after.
Here is the in brief the reasons for the misunderstanding of the process of standing before God, the resurrection event, and it’s out, come, or not, reward.
(Philippians 3:10-11) 10 so as to know him and the power of his resurrection and a sharing in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.
The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead. [Literally, the out-resurrection of the dead (ones)].”
The problem lies with early translations. These made without an understanding of the general framework of God’s reality, and the general difficulty of humanity to except God’s right to determine ahead of “time” a final outcome of the question of his sovereignty, even though it is based on mankind’s actions, his inclination, not God’s.
In conclusion we must realize that this is a time of immediate life and death for mankind, not a time to wait for a second chance. Mankind’s second chance is here and now.
(Matthew 7:12-14) . . .“All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean. 13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Looking at the age of Noah who can really fathom the statement in Matthew 7:14 “few”.
(Philippians 3:11) 11 [to see] if I may by any means…. (I might take part in the out resurrection at the Twinkling.)
The longer version. I believe that given the depth of your considerations Peter you must have by now reached the outer limits of the doctrine you associate with. Reason leads us to the limit of reasons given in the doctrine of the provisions being used by God. This is to set us free from the world. This is no small event in it’s self. But is why the warning was given “do not forsake the gathering together”. Frustration with those traveling at say a slower pace, can be. But lets hope we don’t hold our God given awareness’s against our brothers, though they be drinking milk, eating vegetables, or chewing on their first meat.
Seems he longer version won’t post as a whole so I’ll try it in parts.
RESURRECTION part 1
Here is the in brief the reasons for the misunderstanding of the process of standing before God, the resurrection event, and it’s out, come, or not, reward.
(Philippians 3:10-11) 10 so as to know him and the power of his resurrection and a sharing in his sufferings, submitting myself to a death like his, 11 [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier resurrection from the dead.
The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead. [Literally, the out-resurrection of the dead (ones)].”
The problem lies with early translations made without an understanding of the general framework of God’s reality, and the general difficulty of humanity to except God’s right to determine a final outcome of the question of his sovereignty, even though it is based on mankind’s actions, not God’s.
Here is a general consideration of the process of Resurrection and its results.
A note: There is a general misunderstanding within those who go by the name of Christian a term not from the congregation of God but from the world of Satan. To be accurate there are several, but we’ll only mention this one, of the use of upper lower case spelling, as it will help keep things straight and clear UP the framework of God’s reality. This misconception is that there is a (S)avior that is Jesus. The misconception is not that Jesus is “our” (s)avior, thus the lower case (s) is used. He is not “the (S)avior”. When you realize there is only one Savior, capitalized, you begin to straighten out the use of capitals to designate authority, and its’ application. God is our Savior, King, Lord, Redeemer, Ransomer, and so on. Jesus is our savior, king, lord, deliverer of ransom price for God. You will see that I apply this as I go along in the consideration of Resurrection.
“YOU are my witnesses,” is the utterance of Yahweh, “even my servant whom I have chosen, in order that YOU may know and have faith in me, and that YOU may understand that I am the same One. Before me there was no God formed, and after me there continued to be none. 11 I—I am Yahweh, and besides me there is no (S)avior.”
This scripture is probably the most important awareness shared by God so far. The proof of free will, I leave you to ponder.
Two resurrections and two resurrection results, there are two accepted resurrections: a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous. The problem lies in the mistranslation of the words relating to resurrection, meant to be out, not first. This will be explained as we go along.
The Greek word a•na′sta•sis literally means “raising up; standing up.” It is used frequently in the Christian Greek Scriptures with reference to the resurrection of the dead. The Hebrew Scriptures at Hosea 13:14, quoted by the apostle Paul (1Co 15:54, 55), speak of the abolition of death and the rendering powerless of Sheol (Heb., sheʼohl′; Gr., hai′des). Sheʼohl′ is rendered in various versions as “grave” and “pit”
But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality,( this is a reference to the event Twinkly) then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
The dead are spoken of as going there. (Ge 37:35; 1Ki 2:6; Ec 9:10). Its usage in the Scriptures, along with the usage of its Greek equivalent hai′des in the Christian Greek Scriptures, shows that it refers, not to an individual grave, but to the common grave of mankind, gravedom (Eze 32:21-32; Re 20:13; see HADES; SHEOL). To render Sheol powerless would mean to loosen its hold on those in it, which would imply the emptying of gravedom. This, of course, would require a resurrection, a raising up from the lifeless condition of death or out of the grave for those there who are alive to God. The resurrection to judgment of those left in the grave but now put under the authority of Jesus, as they await the coming destruction.
Through Jesus Christ. The foregoing shows that the teaching of resurrection appears in the Hebrew Scriptures. Nevertheless, it remained for Jesus Christ to “shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news.” (2Ti 1:100)
Part 2
6 For this very cause I remind you to stir up like a fire the gift of God which is in you through the laying of my hands upon you 9(spirit of adoption).7 For God gave us not a spirit of cowardice, but that of power and of love and of soundness of mind. 8 Therefore do not become ashamed of the witness about our lord, neither of me a prisoner for his sake, but take your part in suffering evil for the good news according to the power of God. 9 He (God) saved us and called us with a holy calling, not by reason of our works, but by reason of his own purpose and undeserved kindness. This was given us in connection with Christ Jesus before times long lasting, 10 but now it has been made clearly evident through the manifestation of our savior, Christ Jesus, who has abolished death but has shed light upon life and incorruption through the good news, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher.
Jesus said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me” (Joh 14:6). Just how everlasting life would come, and more than that, incorruption for some, was brought to light through the good news about Jesus Christ. The apostle affirms that the resurrection is a sure hope, arguing: “Now if Christ is being preached that he has been raised up from the dead, how is it some among you say there is no resurrection of the dead? If, indeed, there is no resurrection of the dead, neither has Christ been raised up. But if Christ has not been raised up, our preaching is certainly in vain, and our faith is in vain. Moreover, we are also found false witnesses of God, because we have borne witness against God that he raised up the Christ, but whom he did not raise up if the dead are really not to be raised up. . . . Further, if Christ has not been raised up, your faith is useless; you are yet in your sins. . . . However, now Christ has been raised up from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep in death. For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a man.”—1Co 15:12-21.
One other aspect of the above scripture is it shows how Christ’s resurrection applies , in relating to the “true Jew” and those left in sin in the “Nation of Israel” who did not hear and follow Jesus.
Christ himself when on earth performed resurrections. (Lu 7:11-15; 8:49-56; Joh 11:38-44) Only through Jesus Christ can resurrection, with everlasting life thereafter, be possible.—Joh 5:26.
A Sure Purpose of God. Jesus Christ pointed out to the Sadducees, a sect that did not believe in resurrection, that the writings of Moses in the Hebrew Scriptures, which they possessed and claimed to believe, prove there is a resurrection; Jesus reasoned that when Yahweh said He was “the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob” (who were actually dead), he counted those men as alive because of the resurrection that He, “the God, not of the dead, but of the living,” purposed to give them. God, because of His power, “makes the dead alive and calls the things that are not as though they were.” Paul includes this fact when speaking of Abraham’s faith.—Mt 22:23, 31-33; Ro 4:17.
How the Need for Resurrection Arose. In the beginning, a resurrection was not necessary. It was not a part of God’s original purpose for mankind because death was not the natural, purposed thing for humans. Rather, God indicated that He purposed the earth to be full of living humans, not a deteriorating, dying race. His work was perfect, hence without flaw, imperfection, or sickness. (De 32:4) Yahweh blessed the first human pair, telling them to multiply and fill the earth (Ge 1:28). Such blessing certainly did not include sickness and death. God set no limited life span for man, but He told Adam that disobedience is what would cause death. This implies that man would otherwise live forever. Disobedience would incur God’s disfavor and remove His blessing, bringing a curse.—Ge 2:17; 3:17-19.
Consequently, death was introduced into the human race by the transgression of Adam (Ro 5:12). Because of their father’s sinfulness and resultant imperfection, Adam’s offspring could not get a heritage of everlasting life from Him; in fact, not even a hope of living forever. This information is why understanding the Adoption process with its “token” of adoptive spirit, with its inherent increased mental capacity, is so important, culminating in the full inheritance at the “Twinkling.
Because of this the ability from the full inheritance of active force or adoptive spirit, the “Great Cloud of witnesses” “see” Jesus returning “in the Clouds”, to a full awareness in this Cloud of witness’s as they no longer “see” in a hazy outline. “Neither can a rotten tree produce fine fruit,” said Jesus. (Mt 7:17, 18; Job 14:1, 2) The resurrection was brought in, or added, to overcome this disability for those of Adam’s children who would desire to be obedient to God.
Part 3
Purpose of the Resurrection. The resurrection shows forth not only Yahweh’s unlimited power and wisdom but also His love and His mercy and vindicates Him as the Preserver of those alive, who serve Him (1Sa 2:6). Having resurrection power, He can go to the extent of showing that His servants will be faithful to Him to their very death. He can answer Satan’s accusation that asserted that “skin in behalf of skin, and everything that a man has he will give in behalf of his soul.” (Job 2:4) Yahweh can let Satan go the full limit, even to killing some in a vain effort to support his false accusations (Mt 24:9; Re 2:10; 6:11). The fact that Yahweh’s servants are willing to give up life (existence) itself in His service proves their service is, not for selfish considerations, but out of love (Re 12:11). It also proves that they acknowledge Him as the Almighty, the Universal Sovereign, and the God of love, who is able to resurrect them. It proves they render exclusive devotion to Yahweh for His wonderful qualities and not for selfish material reasons. (Consider some of the exclamations of His servants, as recorded at Ro 11:33-36; Re 4:11; 7:12.) The resurrection also is a means by which Yahweh Sees that His purpose toward the earth, as stated to Adam, is carried out.—Ge 1:28.
Essential to man’s happiness. The resurrection of the dead, an undeserved kindness on God’s part, is essential to mankind’s happiness and to the undoing of all the harm, suffering, and oppression that have come upon the human race. These things have befallen man as a result of his imperfection and sickness, the wars he has waged, the murders committed, and the inhumanities practiced by wicked people at the instance of Satan the Devil. We cannot be completely happy if we do not believe in a resurrection. The apostle Paul expressed the feeling in these words: “If in this life only we have hoped in Christ, we are of all men most to be pitied.”—1Co 15:19.
How Early Was Resurrection Hope Given? After Adam had sinned and had brought death upon himself and thereby introduced death for those who would be his posterity, God, in addressing the serpent, said: “And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”—Ge 3:15.
One originally causing death to be removed. Jesus said to the religious Jews who opposed him: “You are from your father the Devil, and you wish to do the desires of your father. That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him.” (Joh 8:44) This is evidence that it was the Devil who spoke through the instrumentality of the serpent, and that this one was a manslayer from the beginning of his lying, devilish course. In the vision that Christ later gave to John, he revealed that Satan the Devil is also called “the original serpent” (Re 12:9). Satan got his hold on mankind, gaining influence over Adam’s children, by inducing their father Adam to rebel against God. So in the first prophecy of Genesis 3:15, Yahweh gave hope that this Serpent would be put out of the way (Compare Ro 16:20). Not only is Satan’s head to be crushed but also all of his works are to be broken up, destroyed, or undone (1Jo 3:8; NW, KJ, AT). The fulfillment of this prophecy would of necessity require the undoing of the death introduced by Adam, including bringing back by a resurrection those of Adam’s offspring who go into Sheol (Hades) as a result of sin, but that exercise faith in Jesus for forgiveness of their personal sin.—1Co 15:26.
Hope of freedom entails resurrection. The apostle Paul describes the situation that God permitted to exist following man’s fall into sin and His end purpose in doing so: “For the creation was subjected to futility [being born in sin and with death facing all], not by its own will [the children of Adam were brought into the world facing this situation, though they themselves had no control over what Adam had done, and by no choice of their own] but through him [God, in his wisdom] that subjected it, on the basis of hope that the creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God (Ro 8:20, 21; Ps 51:5)
(Psalm 51:5) . . .Look! With error I was brought forth with birth pains, And in sin my mother conceived me.
We are born under the headship of Adam and his error. Then in our turn we, our mother, have sinned and through this no hope of an out-resurrection.
In order to experience the fulfillment of this hope of glorious freedom, those who have died would have to have a resurrection; they would have to be freed from, death, and the grave. Thus, by his promise of the “seed” that would crush the serpent’s head, God set a marvelous hope before mankind.
Abraham’s basis for faith. The evidence in the Bible record reveals that when Abraham attempted to offer up his son Isaac he had faith in God’s ability and purpose to raise the dead. And as stated at Hebrews 11:17-19, he did receive Isaac back from the dead “in an illustrative way.” (Ge 22:1-3, 10-13) Abraham had a basis for faith in a resurrection because of God’s promise of the “seed.” (Ge 3:15) Also, he and Sarah had already experienced something comparable to a resurrection in the revitalizing of their reproductive powers. (Ge 18:9-11; 21:1, 2, 12; Ro 4:19-21) Job expressed similar faith, saying, in his intense suffering: “O that in Sheol you would conceal me, . . . that you would set a time limit for me and remember me! If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? . . . You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.”—Job 14:13-15.
Resurrections before ransom was given. Resurrections were performed by or through the prophets Elijah and Elisha. (1Ki 17:17-24; 2Ki 4:32-37; 13:20, 21) However, these resurrected persons died again, as did those resurrected by Jesus when he was on earth as well as those resurrected by the apostles. This reveals that resurrection is not to everlasting life in every case before the ransom price was paid.
Because of having been resurrected by his friend Jesus, Lazarus was likely alive Pentecost 33 C.E., when the holy spirit was poured out and the first ones of the heavenly calling/upward call, all those who call on the name of God and his son Jesus, (Heb 3:1) were anointed and spirit begotten (received adoptive spirit. (Ac 2:1-4, 33, 38) Lazarus’ resurrection was similar to those performed by Elijah and Elisha. It opened up to Lazarus the opportunity of receiving a resurrection like Christ’s, in the Twinkly. What a remarkable act of love on Jesus’ part! And Gift of power from his Father to ease Jesus’ pain of existence without his friend—Joh 11:38-44.
“A better resurrection.”
The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)].”
The earlier/first/ better/literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones).
There were those faithful persons of old times of whom Paul speaks: “Women received their dead by resurrection; but other men were tortured because they would not accept release by some ransom, in order that they might attain a better resurrection.” Pay attention here to the translation, “Better”. (Heb 11:35)
(Philippians 3:10-11) . . ., 11 [to see] if I may by any means attain to the earlier (out)resurrection from the dead. .
Revelation 20:5, 6 refers to the resurrection, “the first resurrection”, those belonging to Christ.
The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)].”
(Revelation 20:5-6) . . .. This is the out- resurrection. 6 Happy and holy is anyone having part in the out- resurrection; over these the second death has no authority, and from these members of humanity, will be priests of God and of the Christ, and will rule as kings with him for the thousand years.
We know that there is to be only Two Resurrections, the “first” the“Out”-resurrection, for Jesus as the first of this first resurrection followed by the rest at the Twinkling and then the rest of the dead in the graves never come to life during the thousand years. This is a recorded result that there is no other “way” to life other than Yahweh’s, as the final result of the Question.
These men exhibited faith in the resurrection hope, knowing that life at that time was not the all-important thing. The resurrection they and others will have through Christ comes after his resurrection and appearance in heaven before his Father with the value of God’s ransom sacrifice delivered by Jesus. At that time God purchased the life right of the human race, becoming the “Eternal Father.” (Heb 9:11, 12, 24; Isa 9:6) He is “a life-giving spirit.”
(Hebrews 9:11-12) 11 However, when Christ came as a high priest of the good things that have come to pass, through the greater and more perfect tent not made with hands, that is, not of this creation, (made by God through the resurrection of Jesus)12 he entered, no, not with the blood of goats and of young bulls, but with his own blood, once for all time into the holy place and obtained an everlasting deliverance [for us].
(Hebrews 9:24) 24 For Christ entered, not into a holy place made with hands, which is a copy of the reality, but into heaven itself, now to appear before the person of God for us.
This is the way it should read. (Isaiah 9:6) . . .For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. His name will be called wonderful Counselor, mighty god, the Eternal Father’s, Prince of Peace.
Isa 9:6 For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called wonderful Counselor, mighty god, Eternal Father’s, Prince of Peace. 7 To the abundance of the princely rule and to peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David and upon God’s Kingdom in order to establish it firmly and to sustain it by means of justice and by means of righteousness, from now on and to time indefinite. The very zeal of Yahweh of armies will do this.
Remember God’s Kingdom is to be put back in order by Jesus’ kingdom, and when this is accomplished turned back, to be again God’s Kindgom.( The very zeal of Yahweh of armies will do this. )
He has “the keys of death and of Hades [Sheol].” (Re 1:18) With the authority now to give everlasting life, at God’s due time he performs “a better or “out” resurrection,” since those experiencing it can live forever; none of such unavoidably need to die again. If obedient, they will continue living.
Jesus now has the keys as the “door keeper) (1Co 15:45) He has “the keys of death and of Hades [Sheol].”
I’ll stop here not wanting to overwhelm the day.
Part 4
(Re 1:18) and the living one; and I became dead, but, look! I am living forever and ever, and I have the keys of death and of Ha′des
With the authority given, now to give everlasting life, at God’s due time he performs “a better, out-resurrection,” since those experiencing it can live forever; none of such unavoidably need to die again. If obedient, they will continue living.
Heavenly Resurrection?. Jesus Christ is called “the firstborn from the dead.” (Col 1:18) He was the first ever to be resurrected to everlasting life. His resurrection was to earth, under the promise to Abraham to “inherit the earth”
(1Pe 3:18) Moreover, he was raised to a higher form of life and a higher position than that which he had held in the heavens prior to coming to earth, when called by his Father to ascend to heaven. He was granted immortality and incorruption in the flesh, and was made “higher than the heavens,” second only to Yahweh God in the universe, when called to ascend, not when resurrected. (Heb 7:26; 1Ti 6:14-16; Php 2:9-11; Ac 2:34; 1Co 15:27) His resurrection was performed by Yahweh God himself.—Ac 3:15; 5:30; Ro 4:24; 10:9.
However, for 40 days after his resurrection Jesus appeared to his disciples on different occasions in various fleshly bodies, just as angels had appeared to men of ancient times. Like those angels, he had the power to construct and to disintegrate those fleshly bodies at will, for the purpose of proving visibly that he had been resurrected. (Mt 28:8-10, 16-20; Lu 24:13-32, 36-43; Joh 20:14-29; Ge 18:1, 2; 19:1; Jos 5:13-15; Jg 6:11, 12; 13:3, 13) This ability either given as a special gift to show his resurrection as the son of God, or we might speculate an ability of Mankind necessary to have control over the living things of the earth originally. His many appearances, and particularly his manifesting himself to more than 500 persons at one time, provide strong testimony to the truth of his resurrection. (1Co 15:3-8) His resurrection, so well attested, furnishes “a guarantee to all men” the hope of “THE” resurrection. regarding the certainty of a future day of reckoning or judgment.—Ac 17:31.
Resurrection of Christ’s “brothers.” Those who are “called and chosen and faithful,” Christ’s footstep followers, his “brothers,” who are spiritually begotten as “God’s children,” are promised a resurrection like his. (Re 17:14; Ro 6:5; 8:15, 16; Heb 2:11)
(Romans 8:14-17) . . .For all who are led by God’s spirit, these are God’s sons. 15 For YOU did not receive a spirit of slavery causing fear again, but YOU received a spirit of adoption as sons, by which spirit we cry out: “Abba, Father!” 16 The spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 If, then, we are children, we are also heirs: heirs indeed of God, but joint heirs with Christ, provided we suffer together that we may also be glorified together.
This scripture is very important because it points out that the spirit of adoption the “token” is what allows us to be identified as God’s children both male and female. The UP-ward call, the path that Jesus pursued and revealed to us is not one taken only by our servants the 144,000 only, or we should say brothers, with the privilege of service to us for God.
The apostle Peter writes to fellow Christians: “Blessed be the God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for you.”—1Pe 1:3, 4. This citizenship had to be reserved until Jesus took over the dwelling place of earth and was established as his (k)ingship over earth. All have knowledge and so are spiritually begotten, or born again, into the adoption process as “son’s of God”.
Peter also describes the hope such ones possess as “precious and very grand promises, that through these you may become sharers in divine nature.” (2Pe 1:4) They must undergo a change of nature, giving up human nature to obtain “divine” nature, thus sharing with Christ in his glory. This achieved in the Twinkling. They must die a death like Christ’s—maintaining—and then they receive immortal, incorruptible bodies like Christ’s by a resurrection. (Ro 6:3-5; 1Co 15:50-57; 2Co 5:1-3) The apostle Paul explains that it is not the body that is resurrected, but rather, he likens their experience to the planting and sprouting of a seed, in that “God gives it a body just as it has pleased him.” (1Co 15:35-40) It is the soul, the person, that is resurrected, with a body to suit the environment into which God resurrects him.
(2 Corinthians 5:1-5) 5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, should be dissolved, we are to have a building from God, a house not made with hands, everlasting in the heavens(the house of God) 2 For in this dwelling house we do indeed groan, earnestly desiring to put on the one for us from heaven, 3 so that, having really put it on, we shall not be found naked. 4 In fact, we who are in this tent (temporary dwelling)groan, being weighed down; because we want, not to put it off, but to put on the other, that what is mortal (dead in trespass)may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now he that produced us for this very thing is God, who gave us the token of what is to come, that is, the spirit.
Strangely enough the witness’s in the Insight on the Scriptures, gives an accurate explanation of why it is necessary that the spirit of Jesus is preserved and then resurrected as the “only way the person resurrected could be the same person in identity that was transferred to earth to be born as a man”
) If you’ve been a Witness it’s important to see that nowhere in the Bible has a heavenly place to exist been promised to mankind. The “crown of glory” is what we receive as declared righteous. (2Ti 4:8) When Christ’s “presence” takes place, there are some of his spiritual brothers yet alive on earth. Those of their number who have died are given first attention by a resurrection. (Re 19:9) This is explained at 1 Thessalonians 4:15, 16: “For this is what we tell you by Yahweh’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first.” They rise first, the out-resurrection, to be enlightened along with the rest alive at the time (the Twinkling).
Paul then adds: “Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we shall always be with the Lord.” The new “air is a consideration of the affect of the increased mental capacity given by the completion of the full inheritance of adoptive spirit received. Jesus becomes the new “god” of the air or mental influence over mankind, replacing the old “god” of the air, Satan. All awareness is raised to a “heavenly” oneness with Jesus allowing all present to “see” Jesus, truly for the first time, not in a hazy outline anymore. (1Th 4:17)
First resurrection. Revelation 20:5, 6 refers to the out-resurrection of those who belong to Christ as “the out- resurrection.” The apostle Paul speaks of this first resurrection also as “the earlier resurrection from the dead [literally, the out-resurrection the out of dead (ones)].” (Php 3:11, NW, Ro, Int) On the expression Paul uses here, Robertson’s Word Pictures in the New Testament (1931, Vol. IV, p. 454) says: “Apparently Paul is thinking here only of the resurrection of believers out from the dead and so double ex [out] (ten exanastasin ten ek nekron). Paul is not denying a general resurrection by this language, but emphasizing that of believers.” Charles Ellicott’s Commentaries (1865, Vol. II, p. 87) remarks on Philippians 3:11: “‘The resurrection from the dead;’ i.e., as the context suggests, the first or out resurrection (Rev. xx. 5), when, at the Lord’s coming the dead in Him shall rise first (1 Thessalon. iv. 16), and the quick be caught up to meet Him in the clouds. In the clouds because there will still be those living having a hazy outline, or in other words in a cloud.(1 Thess. iv. 17); compare Luke xx. 35. The first resurrection will include only true believers, and will apparently precede the second, that of non-believers and disbelievers, in point of time . . . Any reference here to a merely ethical resurrection (Cocceius) is wholly out of the question.” One of the basic meanings of the word e•xa•na′sta•sis is getting up from bed in the morning; thus it can well represent a resurrection occurring early, otherwise called “the first resurrection.” Rotherham’s translation of Philippians 3:11 reads: “If by any means I may advance to the earlier resurrection which is from among the dead.” So you can see that only if you read it as out-resurrection can you begin to understand that the unrighteous resurrection is not a return to life. The general framework of reality really has no room for the consideration that the unrighteous receive the return to the living. The receiving of life or return to consciousness is not a mandatory part of the resurrection process.
Earthly Resurrection. While Jesus was hanging on a stake, one of the evildoers alongside him, observing that Jesus was not deserving of punishment, requested: “Jesus, remember me when you get into your kingdom.” Jesus replied: “Truly I tell you today, You will be with me in Paradise.” (Lu 23:42, 43) In effect, Jesus said: ‘On this dark day, when my claim to a kingdom is to outward appearances highly unlikely, you express faith. Indeed, when I do get into my kingdom, I will remember you.’ (See PARADISE.) This would require a resurrection for the evildoer. Obviously this man found himself in an unusual moment and seized on the importance of it. when he requested of Jesus to be remembered. It is important to remember, “no man is fit for life” it is a free gift, well almost you must act on your faith. This man was not a faithful follower of Jesus Christ. He had been engaged in wrongdoing, lawbreaking meriting the death penalty. But he excercised his understanding that Jesus was the son of God. How much awareness and action must mankind who is unfit for life have to be saved?(Lu 23:40, 41).
“The righteous and the unrighteous.” The apostle Paul said to a group of Jews who also entertained the hope of a resurrection that “there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous.”—Ac 24:15.
The Bible makes it plain who are “the righteous.” First of all, those who are to receive a out- resurrection are declared righteous.—Ro 8:28-30.
Then the Bible calls faithful men of old such as Abraham righteous. (Ge 15:6; Jas 2:21) Many of these men are listed at Hebrews chapter 11, and of them the writer says: “And yet all these, although they had witness borne to them through their faith, did not get the fulfillment of the promise, as God foresaw something better for us [spirit-begotten, anointed Christians like and those of the first resurrection], in order that they might not be made perfect apart from us.” (Heb 11:39, 40) So, the perfecting of them will take place in it’s right order. Had they received perfection the whole of reality after them would have been quite unimaginable. So it is obvious that the better things where for all of mankind’s best interests at the Twinkling.
Also, there are many “unrighteous” persons buried in Sheol (Hades), mankind’s common grave, or in “the sea,” or the sea of humanity.. The judgment of these along with “the righteous” resurrected on earth is described in Revelation 20:12, 13: “And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. But another scroll was opened; it is the scroll of life. And the dead were judged out of those things written in the scrolls according to their deeds, those still dead in the grave. And the sea (of humanity) gave up those dead in it, and death and Hades gave up those dead in them, and they were judged individually according to their deeds.” So unlike what general mankind has understood the “sea” to mean, the true meaning of this is easily understood when you perceive that those in the grave who did not call on God for a resurrection to life are just part of the sea of humanity, those in the common grave, along with the dead still in existence at Armageddon. Remaining until they are turned over to Jesus’ keeping. The sea of humanity is emptied from memorial tombs and turned over to Jesus as he takes over his kingdom, remaining in the grave, no longer memorial graves as the judgment of this system has happened and all hope of those who died apart from Christ have no hope of a return to life or living. These remain in the grave to await the coming destruction. The resurrection for them is not an out-resurrection. They stand before God, remaining judged. Their stand is what they chose during there life time, and is now before God.
Dear Traveler,
Thank you for continuing to share your thoughts. I deeply value these exchanges, because they help us search the Scriptures together with sincerity and respect. I would like to gather my thoughts on the subject of the resurrection, since it lies at the very heart of God’s purpose for mankind.
The Bible teaches that resurrection is not simply a return to existence but a “standing again,” with distinctions according to God’s plan. Paul even speaks of the resurrection (Phil. 3:11), as a resurrection of special honor, different from the general raising of the dead. Jesus himself is the first example of this, being the “firstborn from the dead” (Col. 1:18), raised not merely to human life again but to incorruptible, immortal life.
In Philippians 3:11, most English Bibles translate it simply as “resurrection”, but Paul actually uses a slightly unusual form of the word:
The normal Greek word for resurrection is anástasis (ἀνάστασις), literally “a standing up.”
But in Philippians 3:11 Paul uses exanástasis (ἐξανάστασις), literally “a standing up out from among [the dead].”
That little prefix ex- (ἐξ) means “out from, out of.”
It suggests not merely resurrection in general, but a special resurrection out from among the dead ones—that is, the first resurrection of the saints to immortality, distinct from the general resurrection of the world later.
Why was resurrection introduced at all? Originally, it was not needed—Adam and Eve were created to live forever in obedience. But through sin, death entered, and all of Adam’s offspring inherited mortality (Rom. 5:12). Resurrection is therefore God’s loving remedy, restoring what was lost. Jesus declared, “I am the resurrection and the life” (John 11:25), and by his own resurrection he brought to light both life and incorruption (2 Tim. 1:10).
The purpose of resurrection is manifold. It vindicates God’s wisdom, power, and love, showing that His will cannot be thwarted by death. It also answers Satan’s slander that men serve God only for selfish gain (Job 2:4). In Job’s case, Satan charged that men only serve God for what they can get out of it, saying: “Skin for skin, yes, all that a man has will he give for his life” (Job 2:4). But when we see faithful men and women willing to suffer loss—even life itself—while holding to their integrity, it demonstrates that devotion to God is not merely for selfish gain.
Here is where the resurrection hope comes in: those who lay down their lives in loyalty to God do not do so in vain, for He has promised to restore life in His due time (John 5:28–29; Acts 24:15). Thus the resurrection is not only an expression of divine mercy, but also a foundation for proving that true service springs from love and trust in God’s character, not from present rewards.
The faithful who lay down their lives for God demonstrate their loyalty, knowing He can restore them. Thus resurrection is not an afterthought, but a key part of God’s plan to undo Adam’s curse and destroy the works of the devil (1 John 3:8).
We see a distinction in resurrection. Jesus’ faithful disciples, begotten by the spirit and adopted as God’s children, are promised a share in his own resurrection to incorruptible life (Rom. 8:14–17). This “first resurrection” is to heavenly life, and Paul explains that such ones are “changed” in a moment, receiving a body suited to their new nature (1 Cor. 15:35–54). Revelation calls them “blessed and holy” because over them the second death has no power (Rev. 20:6).
Yet the promise is not limited to this class. The Scriptures affirm that “there shall be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous” (Acts 24:15). Jesus assured the repentant wrongdoer beside him that he would be remembered in Paradise (Luke 23:43)—a clear promise of an earthly resurrection. The faithful men of old, such as Abraham, Job, and David, await this resurrection, when they will stand again on earth under Christ’s Kingdom rule (Heb. 11:39-40). The unrighteous, too, will be brought forth, not because they earned life, but that they might stand before God’s judgment and receive opportunity under the clearer light of Christ’s reign (John 5:28-29; Rev. 20:12–13).
At present, Jesus holds the “keys of death and Hades” (Rev. 1:18). This means that the grave and death itself are no permanent prison. In due time, he will open those gates, calling forth all who sleep. The faithful few will already have been raised to immortal life; the great multitude of mankind will awaken to earthly life in a restored world, where they can learn righteousness under the loving oversight of Christ and his associates.
Thus, resurrection is not a vague hope but the central feature of God’s plan of salvation: first, for the faithful who suffer with Christ and share his glory; second, for the world of mankind, raised to life and given opportunity for everlasting blessing upon the earth. In the end, every enemy, including death itself, will be destroyed, and the Kingdom will be delivered back to the Father, that He may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:22–28).
I share this in the spirit of hope and love, not to argue, but to strengthen our mutual faith in the One who has promised, “Behold, I make all things new” (Rev. 21:5).
With warm regards,
Peter
As you’ve said there is an out-resurrecton. After that there is no mention of a resurrection leading to a return to existence. The Question is as the Bible states “ask once, for all time.” not twice. I’m not sure reading your last reply how you miss this point, emotional hope I expect. But there is only “one” hope of a resurrection to life, the earlier, Out-resurrection. you have my love brother.
Part 5
Time of the earthly resurrection. We note that this judgment is placed in the Bible in the account of events occurring during Christ’s Thousand Year Reign with his associate kings and priests. These, the apostle Paul said, “will judge the world.” (1Co 6:2) “The great and the small,” persons from all walks of life, will be there, to be judged impartially. They are “judged out of those things written in the scrolls” that will be opened then. This could not mean the record of their past lives nor a set of rules that judges them on the basis of their past lives. Those who remain Judged are in the grave so their record is already established. For since “the wages sin pays is death,” these who are forgiven in the old system, crossed from death to life being forgiven. (Ro 6:7, 23) Now they are resurrected that they might demonstrate their attitude toward God.. Accordingly, “the scrolls” evidently set forth the will and law of God for them during that Judgment Day, their faith and their obedience to these things being the basis for judgment and for writing their names indelibly, at last, into “the scroll of life.” In this “day” of Jesus, we remember God’s day as a thousand years we see the last possibility for mankind to explore, a large population of Perfected humanity which according to prophecy will largely stay true in faith to God, and remain unjudged. Will some fall, maybe, and those will enter into Jesus keeping as no one can be destroyed until the final answer at the end of the thousand years. We see that Satan will be released for a sort time as the final consideration of this populations faithfullness.
Resurrection to Life and to Judgment. Jesus gave the comforting assurance to mankind: “The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. . . . Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”—Joh 5:25-29. By now I would expect that it is an easy thing to see the difference in the out-resurrection and the resurrection of judgment. All rested in memorial graves because the questions of humanities possibilities had not been answered. But at Armageddon mankind in general has lost the ability to life longer. They have lost hope for a future, living.
A judgment of condemnation. In Jesus’ words here, the word “judgment” translates the Greek word kri′sis. According to Parkhurst, the meanings of this word in the Christian Greek Scriptures are as follows: “I. Judgment. . . . II. Judgment, justice. Mat. xxiii. 23. Comp. xii. 20. . . . III. Judgment of condemnation, condemnation, damnation. Mark iii. 29. John v. 24, 29. . . . IV. The cause or ground of condemnation or punishment. John iii. 19. V. A particular court of justice among the Jews, . . . Mat. v. 21, 22.”—A Greek and English Lexicon to the New Testament, London, 1845, p. 342.
If Jesus, in speaking of judgment, meant a trial the result of which might be life, then there would be no contrast between this and the “resurrection of life.” Therefore, the context indicates that Jesus meant by “judgment” a condemnatory judgment.
“The dead” that heard Jesus speak on earth. In considering Jesus’ words, we note that when Jesus spoke, some of “the dead” were hearing his voice. Peter used similar language when he said: “In fact, for this purpose the good news was declared also to the dead, that they might be judged as to the flesh from the standpoint of men but might live as to the spirit from the standpoint of God.” (1Pe 4:6) This is so because those hearing Christ were ‘dead in trespasses and sins’ before hearing but would begin to ‘live’ spiritually because of faith in the good news.—Eph 2:1; compare Mt 8:22; 1Ti 5:6.
John 5:29 refers to end of judgment period.
(John 5:25-29) . . .“Most truly I say to YOU, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live. 26 For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to do judging, because Son of man he is. 28 Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.
We can clearly see in John 5:25-29 that the process of standing before God, or as it’s called the resurrection process, can lead to one of two results. Keeping straight, a person dead legally in this system, and someone who was dead in their trespass’s, but has crossed from death to life after excising their belief in Jesus, is essential to understanding who is living in a memorial tomb, and who is dead legally in a memorial tomb. This also allows us to keep straight how those in the tombs can “stand” before God.
But a very important thing to notice, something that helps to determine the time feature of Jesus’ words concerning the ‘resurrection of life and the resurrection of judgment,’ is what he said earlier in the same context, in speaking of those living then who were spiritually dead: “The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed [literally, word for word, “the (ones) having heard”] will live.” (Joh 5:25, Int) This indicates that he was not speaking merely of someone audibly hearing his voice but, rather, of the ones “having heard,” namely, those who, after hearing, accept as true what they hear. The terms “hear” and “listen” are used very frequently in the Bible with the meaning of “give heed” or “obey.” Those who prove to be obedient will live. (Compare the use of the same Greek term [a•kou′o], “hear or listen,” at Joh 6:60; 8:43, 47; 10:3, 27.) They are judged, not on what they did before hearing his voice, but on what they do after hearing it. As they remain un-judged in this system it is plain this takes place in the thousand years of Christ’s reign based on their actions there. The second chance, of some reasoning’s. This however leaves those who are judged in this system with a resurrection result of remaining with their stand of being judged already. They remain in the grave during the thousand years.
Jesus was therefore evidently taking a similar position in time in speaking of “those who did good things” and “those who practiced vile things,” namely, a position at the end of the period of judgment, as looking back in retrospect or in review of the actions of these resurrected persons after they had opportunity to obey or disobey the “things written in the scrolls.” Only at the end of the judgment period would it be demonstrated who had done good or bad. Again we see that no absolute conclusions are able to be stated until the answering of the question at the end of the thousand years. The outcome to “those who did good things” (according to “those things written in the scrolls”) would be the reward of life; to “those who practiced vile things,” a judgment of condemnation. The resurrection would have turned out to be either to life or to remain judged in condemnation. So here is in many other considerations you need to keep track of the fact that none can be destroyed, and no absolute statement is possible as outcome until the question of God’s sovereignty is answered by the end of the thousand years.
The practice of stating things as viewed from the standpoint of the outcome, or stating them as already accomplished, considering them in retrospect, is common in the Bible. Remembering that this view in being held by those believing in God and his Son. For God is “the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done.” (Isa 46:10) Jude adopts this same viewpoint when he speaks of corrupt men who slipped into the congregation, saying of them: “Too bad for them, because they have gone in the path of Cain, and have rushed into the erroneous course of Balaam for reward, and have perished [literally, they destroyed themselves] in the rebellious talk of Korah!” (Jude 11) Some of the prophecies use similar language.—Compare Isa 40:1, 2; 46:1; Jer 48:1-4.
Consequently the viewpoint taken at John 5:29 is not identical with that at Acts 24:15 in which Paul speaks of the resurrection of “the righteous and the unrighteous.” Paul is plainly referring to those who have had a righteous or unrighteous standing before God during this life, and who will be resurrected. They are “those in the memorial tombs until the Twinkling.”
MEMORIAL TOMB
A burial place in which the remains of a deceased person were placed with the hope that he would be remembered, especially by God.
Concerning the Greek words used to refer to a burial place or tomb, A. T. Robertson in Word Pictures in the New Testament (1932, Vol. V, p. 87) states: “Taphos (grave) presents the notion of burial (thapto, to bury) as in Matt. 23:27, mnemeion (from mnaomai, mimnesko, to remind) is a memorial (sepulchre as a monument).” Related to mne•mei′on is the word mne′ma, which appears to have a corresponding meaning, referring also to “a memorial or record of a thing or a dead person, then a sepulchral monument, and hence a tomb.”—Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, 1981, Vol. 2, p. 173.
Remembrance by God. In view of the underlying thought of remembrance associated with mne•mei′on, the use of this word (rather than ta′phos) at John 5:28 with regard to the resurrection of “all those in the memorial tombs” seems particularly appropriate and contrasts sharply with the thought of complete repudiation and effacement from all memory as represented by Gehenna. (Mt 10:28; 23:33; Mr 9:43) The importance attached to burial by the Hebrews is indicative of their concern that they be remembered, primarily by Yahweh, God in whom they had faith as “the rewarder of those earnestly seeking him.” (Heb 11:1, 2, 6) Inscriptions of the tombs of Israelite origin are very rare and, when found, often consist of only the name. The outstanding kings of Judah left no magnificent monuments with their praises and exploits engraved thereon, as did the kings of other nations. Thus it seems evident that the concern of faithful men of ancient times was that their name be in the “book of remembrance” described at Malachi 3:16.—Compare Ec 7:1; The basic idea of remembrance involved in the original Greek words for “tomb” or “memorial tomb” also gives added meaning to the plea of the thief impaled alongside Jesus to “remember me when you get into your kingdom.”—Lu 23:42.
At John 5:29, Jesus views such persons after their coming out of the memorial tombs and after they, by their course of action during the reign of Jesus Christ and have proved themselves either obedient, with eternal “life” as their reward, or disobedient, and so deserving “judgment [condemnation]” from God along with those remaining under condemnation in the grave.
Soul Recovered From Sheol. King David of Israel wrote: “I foresaw the Lord always before my face; for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved . . . moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Sheol], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.” (Ps 15:8-10, LXX, Bagster [16:8-11, NW]) On the day of Pentecost, 33 C.E., the apostle Peter applied this psalm to Jesus Christ, in declaring to the Jews the truth of Christ’s resurrection. (Ac 2:25-31) The Scriptures, both the Hebrew and the Greek, therefore show that it was the “soul” of Jesus Christ that was resurrected. Jesus Christ was ‘put to death in the flesh, but made alive receiving the spirit of Adoption.’ (1Pe 3:18) “Flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom,” said the apostle Paul.
Most do not understand the significance of the “Token” of adoptive spirit that makes you cross from death to life. Jesus who came under the law of condemnation had too as his brothers after him cross from death to life. Jesus as an adult, being “dead” under his adoptive fathers headship had to take a stand when he reached the age of responsibility. The life of Jesus as a spiritually begotten man, or adopted man was what made him a life giving spirit, something Adam could no longer give even though still living/ in existence. Many people want to talk of the spirit body although we know nothing of the nature of the body that God and the angels exist in. We can clearly see that a spiritual person is recognized by God by that adoptive spirit they acquired by exercising faith in his son.
Throughout the Scriptures it is evident that there is no “immaterial soul” separate and distinct from the body that continues to have existence, the soul only exists in the grave as a life force. The soul becomes unconscious when the body dies. Even of Jesus Christ it is written that “he poured out his soul to the very death.” His soul was in Sheol the place to be preserved until his resurrection. He had no existence as a soul or person during that time. (Isa 53:12; Ac 2:27; compare Eze 18:4) Consequently, in the resurrection there is joining again of soul and body. However, whether spirit or earthly, the individual must have a body or organism, to have consciousness. To be again a person, one who has died would have to have a body, either a physical or a spirit body. The Bible says: “If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one.”—1Co 15:44. This is a very complex consideration in that the body of a man that has crossed from death to life has become a spiritual body. The image mentioned is a reference to the, becoming one with Jesus and God as we are made over. It is the spirit of mankind who crossed from death to life that designates a being to God as living, “ sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption”. In this statement we see how we are kept from seeing corruption as a result in the resurrection. We also see why the dead in existence remain dead, if they never cross from death to life.
(1 Corinthians 15:42-57) 42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption, it is raised up in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised up in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised up in power. 44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised up a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one. 45 It is even so written: “The first man Adam became a living soul.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. 46 Nevertheless, the first is, not that which is spiritual, but that which is physical, afterward that which is spiritual. 47 The first man is out of the earth and made of dust; the second man is out of heaven. 48 As the one made of dust [is], so those made of dust [are] also; and as the heavenly one [is], so those who are heavenly [are] also. 49 And just as we have borne the image of the one made of dust, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly one. 50 However, this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit God’s kingdom, neither does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. 54 But when [this which is corruptible puts on incorruption and] this which is mortal puts on immortality, then the saying will take place that is written: “Death is swallowed up forever.” 55 “Death, where is your victory? Death, where is your sting?” 56 The sting producing death is sin, but the power for sin is the Law. 57 But thanks to God, for he gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ!
Those who listen to Christ, are freed from law.
But is the old body reassembled in the resurrection? or is it precise replica of the former body, made exactly as it was when the person died? The Scriptures answer in the negative when they deal with the resurrection of Christ’s anointed brothers to life: “Nevertheless, someone will say: ‘How are the dead to be raised up? Yes, with what sort of body are they coming?’ You unreasonable person! What you sow is not made alive unless first it dies; and as for what you sow, you sow, not the body that will develop, but a bare grain, it may be, of wheat or any one of the rest; but God gives it a body just as it has pleased him, and to each of the seeds its own body.”—1Co 15:35-38.
A beautiful picture of the planting of the garden of God, as we are the field under cultivation. This also explains Jesus resurrection to earth In one form and the form given when called to ascend to heaven.
what body does he give them? It could not be the same body, of exactly the same atoms. If a man dies and is buried, by process of decay his body is reconverted into organic chemicals that are absorbed by vegetation. Neither is the resurrected body necessarily one constructed to be the exact duplicate of the body at the moment of death. The Bible points the body given in the out resurrection will be fresher than youth.
‘Passing Over From Death to Life.’ Jesus spoke of those who ‘have everlasting life’ because they hear his words with faith and obedience and then believe on the Father who sent him. He said about each one of such: “He does not come into judgment but has passed over from death to life. Most truly I say to you, The hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who have given heed will live.”—Joh 5:24, 25.
Those who have ‘passed over from death to life now’ would not be those who had literally died and were in actual graves. At the time when Jesus spoke, all mankind were under the condemnation of death before God the Judge of all. So the ones Jesus referred to were evidently persons on earth who had been dead in a spiritual sense. Jesus must have referred to such spiritually dead ones when he said to the Jewish son who wanted to go home first to bury his father: “Keep following me, and let the dead bury their dead.”—Mt 8:21, 22.
Those who become “footstep followers” with true belief were once among the spiritually dead people of the world. he apostle Paul reminded the congregation of this fact, saying: “It is you God made alive though you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you at one time walked according to the system of things of this world . . . But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us, made us alive together with the Christ, even when we were dead in trespasses—by undeserved kindness you have been saved( those who did not call on Jesus in faith obviously are not included in this statement.)—and he raised us up together and seated us together in the heavenly places in union with Christ Jesus.”—Eph 2:1, 2, 4-6.
Thus, because of their no longer walking in trespasses and sins against God, and because of their faith in Christ, Yahweh lifted his condemnation from them. He raised them up out of spiritual death and gave them hope of everlasting life. (1Pe 4:3-6) The apostle John describes this transfer from deadness in trespasses and sins to spiritual life in these words: “Do not marvel, brothers, that the world hates you. We know we have passed over from death to life, because we love the brothers.”—1Jo 3:13, 14.
An Undeserved Kindness of God. The provision of a resurrection for humankind is indeed an undeserved kindness of Yahweh God, for he was not obligated to provide a resurrection. Love for the world of mankind moved him to give his only-begotten Son so that millions, yes, even thousands of millions who have died without a real knowledge of God might have opportunity to know and love him, and so that those who love and serve him can have this hope and encouragement to faithful endurance, even as far as death. (Joh 3:16) The apostle Paul comforts fellow followers with the resurrection hope, writing to the congregation at Thessalonica about those of the congregation who had died and who had hope of a heavenly resurrection: “Moreover, brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant concerning those who are sleeping in death; that you may not sorrow just as the rest also do who have no hope. For if our faith is that Jesus died and rose again, so, too, those who have fallen asleep in death through Jesus God will bring with him.”—1Th 4:13, 14.
Ransom applied to all
Yahweh joyfully anticipates the resurrection. Yahweh and his Son must anticipate the full carrying out of that work with great joy. Jesus showed this willingness and desire when a leper entreated him: “‘If you just want to, you can make me clean.’ At that [Jesus] was moved with pity, and he stretched out his hand and touched him, and said to him: ‘I want to. Be made clean.’ And immediately the leprosy vanished from him, and he became clean.” This touching incident demonstrating Christ’s loving-kindness for mankind was recorded by three of the Gospel writers. (Mr 1:40-42; Mt 8:2, 3; Lu 5:12, 13) And of Yahweh’s love and willingness to help mankind, we call again to mind the words of faithful Job: “If an able-bodied man dies can he live again? . . . You will call, and I myself shall answer you. For the work of your hands you will have a yearning.”—Job 14:14, 15.
Some Not Resurrected to life. While it is true that Christ’s ransom sacrifice was given for mankind in general, Jesus indicated that its actual application nevertheless would be limited when he said: “Just as the Son of man came, not to be ministered to, but to minister and to give his soul a ransom in exchange for many.” (Mt 20:28) Yahweh God has the right to refuse to accept a ransom for anyone he deems unworthy. Christ’s ransom covers resulting condition an individual has because of being a child of sinful Adam, but a person can add by his own deliberate, willful course of sin, and he can thus die for such sin that is beyond coverage by the ransom.
Sin against the holy spirit. Jesus Christ said that one who sinned against the holy spirit would not be forgiven in the present system of things nor in that to come. (Mt 12:31, 32) A person whom God judged as having sinned against the holy spirit in the present system of things, would never be forgiven, again of his new sin against the spirit because the adoptive spirit that allowed him to cross from death to life would be taken and he could find no “way” that wourld lead again to a resurrection to life. This refers to one that after crossing from death to life in his belief in Jesus, then forsaking that belief. Having forsaken the belief in Jesus there could be no savior to come. Jesus uttered judgment against Judas Iscariot in calling him “the son of destruction.”. The spirit of adoption gives increased mental capacity and starts the awareness that leads to oneness with Jesus and God. Having been enlightened should a man deny this path there is no longer any forgiveness possible as this speaks of complete lack of faith any longer and a mind in absolute darkness.
To his opposers, the Jewish religious leaders, Jesus said: “How are you to flee from the judgment of Gehenna [a symbol of everlasting destruction]?” (Mt 23:33;.) His words indicate that these persons, if they did not take action to turn to God before their death, would have a final adverse judgment entered against them. If so, a resurrection returning them to life would no longer be possible. This would also appear to be true of “the man of lawlessness.”—2Th 2:3, 8;.
Paul speaks of those who have known the truth, have been partakers of holy spirit of adoption, and then have fallen away, as falling into a condition in which it is impossible “to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.” The ransom could no longer help them; hence they would receive no resurrection to life, but remain judged. The apostle goes on to liken such ones to a field that produces only thorns and thistles and is therefore rejected and ends up being burned. This illustrates the future before them: complete annihilation in the lake of fire.—Heb 6:4-8.
Again, Paul says of those who “practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, [that] there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but there is a certain fearful expectation of judgment and there is a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition.” He then illustrates: “Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do you think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? . . . It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.” The judgment is more severe in that such ones are not merely killed and buried in Sheol, as were violators of the Law of Moses. These go into Gehenna, from which there is no resurrection to life.—Heb 10:26-31.
Peter writes to his brothers, pointing out that they, as “the house of God,” are under judgment, and he then quotes from Proverbs 11:31 (LXX) warning them of the danger of disobedience. He here implies that their present judgment could end with a judgment of everlasting destruction for them, just as Paul had written.—1Pe 4:17, 18.
The apostle Paul also tells of some who will “undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones.” (2Th 1:9, 10) These would therefore not survive into the Thousand Year Reign of Christ, and since their destruction is “everlasting,” they would receive no resurrection to life, just resurrection to condemnation.
In conclusion we must realize that this is a time of immediate life and death for mankind, not a time to wait for a second chance. Mankind’s second chance is here and now.
(Matthew 7:12-14) . . .“All things, therefore, that YOU want men to do to YOU, YOU also must likewise do to them; this, in fact, is what the Law and the Prophets mean. 13 “Go in through the narrow gate; because broad and spacious is the road leading off into destruction, and many are the ones going in through it; 14 whereas narrow is the gate and cramped the road leading off into life, and few are the ones finding it.
Looking at the age of Noah who can really fathom the statement in Matthew 7:14 “few”.
(Philippians 3:11) 11 [to see] if I may by any means…. (I might take part in the out resurrection at the Twinkling.)
Dear Traveler,
Thank you for your thoughtful response, brother. I can see your deep sincerity in searching out this matter, and I am glad we can continue to reason together on the Scriptures with love.
You are right that Paul uses the unusual word in Philippians 3:11, which our translations often render simply “resurrection,” but which in the Greek (ἐξανάστασις, exanástasis) literally means “out-resurrection”—a special resurrection “out from among the dead.” This unique word is never used elsewhere, and it points, as you’ve said, to a resurrection of special distinction. This is the “first resurrection” of the saints, to incorruption and immortality (1 Cor. 15:42–44, 50–54; Rev. 20:6).
But we must not conclude that this is the only resurrection. Paul clearly testified before Felix that “there shall be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous” (Acts 24:15). Jesus himself declared: “The hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out” (John 5:28–29). Notice—all in the memorial tombs. This extends beyond the faithful few who share in the first resurrection.
Here, then, is the distinction:
• The “out-resurrection” (Phil. 3:11; Rev. 20:6) refers to the little flock, Christ’s faithful body members, raised to heavenly glory, over whom the second death has no power.
• The “general resurrection” (John 5:28–29; Acts 24:15) embraces the vast multitude of mankind, both righteous and unrighteous, raised to earthly life under Christ’s Millennial reign.
I understand your reference to the “one hope” (Eph. 4:4). This does indeed point to the heavenly call—the one hope of the Church, to be joined with Christ as his body in glory. That is the prize of the high calling, distinct and precious. Yet it does not exclude God’s wider purpose, for through the glorified Church will flow the blessings of restitution to all mankind (Acts 3:21; Rom. 8:19–21). Thus the “one hope” belongs uniquely to the saints, but it secures also the earthly hope for the world, since their deliverance depends on the faithful class who will reign with Christ. Regarding the “one hope,” yes there is one Author of salvation, one ransom, one Kingdom, one ultimate destiny of life for the obedient—yet different orders and times in which this life is bestowed (1 Cor. 15:22–24).
In harmony with this, Revelation shows two stages: first the resurrection of the saints to reign with Christ (Rev. 20:4–6), and then, after the thousand years, the rest of mankind standing before the great white throne (Rev. 20:11–13). The “scrolls” opened in that day are not the records of past deeds, but new instructions of righteousness under the Kingdom—by which men will be judged worthy of everlasting life (Isa. 26:9; John 12:48).
I agree fully that the “second death” is final, without hope of resurrection (Rev. 20:14). But before that point, the resurrection promise is wide enough to embrace all who “sleep in the dust of the earth” (Dan. 12:2). Even the thief at Jesus’ side was promised remembrance in Paradise (Luke 23:43).
So, brother, while we rejoice in the special prize of the upward calling (Phil. 3:14), we also rejoice in the breadth of God’s mercy, that “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order” (1 Cor. 15:22–23).
With love in Christ and gratitude for your fellowship in these things,
Peter
Dear Traveler,
I’d like to address several additional points you made more directly so that nothing is left unresolved.
First, you suggest that some remain “unconsciously judged” in the grave. Yet our Lord’s words are plain: “All that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth” (John 5:28–29). This includes both the just and the unjust, as Paul confirms in Acts 24:15. If some never rise, then these inspired testimonies would lose their force.
Second, you seem to view resurrection as limited to the faithful alone. But Scripture consistently speaks of a universal resurrection secured by the ransom. Romans 5:18 declares that Christ’s one righteous act brings “justification of life to all men.” This would be incomplete if vast multitudes remained forever in death.
Third, you raise an objection to resurrection as a time of testing. Yet the very word “judgment” (krisis) denotes a process of trial. Revelation 20:12–13 shows the dead being judged “according to their works” when the books are opened during the Kingdom, not before they even stand again. Thus the Millennial age will be the great day of probation for mankind, where each individual may walk the highway of holiness (Isa. 35:8–10).
Fourth, regarding Job 2:4, Satan charged that men serve God only from selfish motives. The general resurrection will furnish the conclusive answer. Under Kingdom blessings—without Satan’s deceptions, without present hardships—billions will then be tested to see whether they will choose righteousness out of love for God. Their faithfulness will fully vindicate Jehovah’s wisdom and character, disproving Satan’s slander universally.
Finally, on Philippians 3:11, the apostle’s phrase is not the ordinary word for resurrection (anastasis), but a strengthened form (exanastasis), literally “an out-resurrection from among the dead.” This indicates the special resurrection prize of the saints—the “better resurrection” of Hebrews 11:35—which Paul strove to attain. The general resurrection will come in due time, but this out-resurrection is the portion of Christ’s body, his joint-heirs.
In this way, the harmony of Scripture is maintained: one special hope for the Church, and through it, a general resurrection and opportunity of life for the world.
With warm regards,
Peter
Peter the problem I believe you are having if that “hearing Jesus voice when he calls those out of the grave does not need those in the memorial tombs be conscious, we know they are dead, unconscious. Jesus voice of action, is just that.
Yes all come out of the memorial tomb some to life some to judgment. Those who receive judgment are now just left in a tomb the grave. “If the righteous are being saved with difficulties where will the unrightous make a showing” In the whole you gain or lose life in this system. You cross over or you don’t. It’s not sin brings death, but wait not really. Those who cross are alive to God, those who don’t remain dead, both in existence and as the exist in the grave.those who are raised in the Twinkly are God’s children. Evil doers are not among them in this system or the next. I give you credit for a worthy try to make a case of reason for your consideration, but now I say present your self, with your power of reason, a sacred service to God….
Dear Traveler,
Thank you for your latest thoughts. A few points in reply:
1. On John 5:28–29.
You reason that Jesus is speaking only of the outcome, not the process. Yet the text says “all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice and come forth.” Resurrection itself is the coming forth. What follows—whether to life or to judgment—is the result of their standing trial. Revelation 20:12–13 confirms this: the dead are raised, the books are opened, and men are judged according to their works in that new day.
2. On “krisis.”
I agree with you that the word can mean condemnation. But often it points to the judicial process that leads to a verdict. In John 5:29, then, those who rise “to judgment” do so because they require testing under the Kingdom. Only after that testing do they either inherit life or face the second death.
3. On the idea of remaining judged in the grave.
You suggest some are never raised because their case is already closed. But Acts 24:15 promises a resurrection “of both the just and unjust.” If the unjust are never raised, then Paul’s testimony would not stand. The ransom price covered all in Adam (Rom. 5:18), and so all must be given opportunity to stand before Christ, except only the few who have committed the unpardonable sin (Matt. 12:32).
4. On the “one hope.”
You stress there is only one hope. Yes, the ONE hope for the followers of Christ is to join him as his body members in heaven. Indeed, there is only one basis of hope—the ransom. Yet Scripture distinguishes the Church’s heavenly calling, the “first resurrection” (Rev. 20:6), from the general resurrection of mankind (John 5:28; Acts 24:15). So there is one ransom, but two classes of those who benefit from it, each in their proper order (1 Cor. 15:23).
With brotherly affection,
Peter
Those who stand before God, come from mankind’s common grave, up to the Twinkling these are memorial tombs because God remembers them as, forgiven of their sins throug Belief in Jesus and thus having received the token of adoptive spirit or dead in their sins, already judged. This separation is quite clear. Forgiven, out resurrection reward, judged already , nolonger to be remembered by God, turned over to Jesus as king to await in now just the grave for the coming destruction. There is no way around this hear Christ’s voice, can only be heard by those given ears by God in the first place,in life or death, but again standing and coming forth obviously does not take concourse.
I think we’ve taken this consideration about as far as we need too to be a fair exchange.
I’d close with this thought. The Bible is quite clear, only a Few find the bath to life. When we look at the many different attempts a logic in the world today, I’ve always taken as a given that the true path could only be held by a few. That path to life would not be among the larger group that is blinded and set on the broad path leading off into destruction.
So when you describe sinners, or more accurately those unforgiven of their sins coming into a system without sin. Populated with fully enlightened people no longer needing to be taught, which I admitt is a common thought among the larger part of those suggesting they are on the narrow path, does that not make you pause. It certainly did me some fifty years ago.
The followers of christ certainly did not beleive in the easy entry from God’s Kingdom on earth, into Jesus’ kingdom on earth would be available to those who did not call on the name of Jesus and his Father. Acts: 59, lord Jesus recieve my spirit. 2 cor.2:14 odor to life… 1Cor. 6:9 will not inherit, Roman 12:1, with your power of reason…
John 3:36 ,He that exercises faith in the son has everlasting life, he that disobey the son will not see life, But the wrath of God remains upon him.
2cor. 13:5 keep on testing whether you are in the faith, keep proving what you yourselves are. Or do you recognize that Jesus Christ is in union with you? Unless you are disapproved.
No second chance. If and when this awareness arrives, I would welcome a relationship with you. You have my email. Fire pit cold beer, good conversation, a event in reality I’d enjoy.
Dear Traveler,
Thank you again for your thoughtful response. I value the way you press these matters with earnest conviction. Allow me to clarify a few key points in reply.
1. On the unconscious state of the dead.
You are correct—those in the tombs are unconscious, as Scripture affirms (Eccl. 9:5, 10; Ps. 146:4). That is why Jesus’ voice is the active power in resurrection. The dead do not “hear” while asleep in death, but when he calls, they live again (John 11:43–44). Thus, “all in the tombs shall hear his voice and come forth” (John 5:28). The hearing is not while dead, but in the act of awakening.
2. On judgment being final before resurrection.
Here I must differ with your conclusion. If judgment were fully settled before resurrection, then Paul’s testimony in Acts 24:15 would not hold—there would be no need for a resurrection “of both the just and the unjust.” Yet he insists on this broader resurrection, not merely of the righteous few. Revelation 20:12–13 further describes the “books” being opened after resurrection, showing a process of trial and testing in the Kingdom. The ransom, given for Adam and his race (Rom. 5:18; 1 Tim. 2:6), demands that all be given opportunity to stand before Christ, except only the few who sin willfully against the Holy Spirit (Matt. 12:32).
3. On the “twinkling” resurrection.
The “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” change (1 Cor. 15:52) applies to the Church class alone—the faithful overcomers who are “partakers of the heavenly calling” (Heb. 3:1). These, raised in the first resurrection, are indeed God’s children, immortal and beyond death (Rev. 20:6). But this does not exhaust God’s loving plan. The “rest of the dead” (Rev. 20:5) are raised later, during the thousand years, to a process of judgment and restoration under Christ’s reign.
4. On evil-doers in the Kingdom.
You say that evildoers are not among those raised. Yet the Scriptures show that even the unjust are brought forth—not to continue evil, but to face exposure, correction, and either reformation or destruction (Isa. 26:9; Acts 17:31). The Kingdom is not “easy entry,” as you note. It is the appointed day when Christ will “judge the world in righteousness.” Only those who accept that righteous government will live. Those who refuse shall be cut off in the “second death” (Acts 3:23; Rev. 20:15).
5. On the narrow way and the few.
Indeed, in this Gospel Age, only a little flock (Luke 12:32) walk the narrow way to glory and honor with Christ. That is the “high calling.” But God’s purpose is larger: through that little flock, blessing flows to “all the families of the earth” (Gen. 22:18; Gal. 3:29). The Kingdom age will not be an “easy way,” but a highway of holiness (Isa. 35:8), open for all mankind to walk if they will.
So, yes, only a few are chosen now. Yet in due time, all the blind eyes shall be opened, and all the deaf ears unstopped (Isa. 35:5). The ransom must reach its full fruitage, that God may be all in all (1 Cor. 15:28).
With brotherly regard,
Peter
Traveler – Let me more deeply answer the question, can both faithful Christians and all mankind be saved?
1 John 2:2: (Weymouth) He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Timothy 4:10: …God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Especially denotes a special reward to faithful believers above and beyond the rest of mankind.
Revelation 22:17: And the spirit and the bride say, Come! And let him who hears say, Come! And let him who thirsts come. Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely.
This is after the “bride” (faithful Christians) is in heaven (Revelation 21:3-6). As earth’s future kings, priests and judges, the “bride of Christ” is inviting mankind to enter the righteous and peaceful kingdom on earth. More on this in later sections.
Romans 8:19-21: For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God…in hope; because the creation itself also (both faithful Christians—sons of God—and ALSO the rest of creation) will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Notice this passage is telling us the whole creation with hope (verse 20) has been eagerly waiting for the sons of God—the bride of Christ who with their bridegroom (Jesus) will bring to earth God’s righteous and peaceful kingdom and deliver the creation into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
1 Peter 2:12: having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.
The day of visitation is in the future kingdom of God on earth when people will glorify God for the very acts of Christians which they had spoken against.
2 Thessalonians 1:10: when he (Jesus) comes, in that Day, to be glorified (future) in his saints and to be admired among all those who believe (future mankind—not his saints), because our (the Apostle Paul’s) testimony among you (early Christians) was believed—who are the future glorified saints.
His saints are faithful Christians. Those who believe refers to resurrected mankind who will admire Jesus in the future kingdom of God on earth.
Genesis 22:17-18: (KJV) That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice.
● stars of the heaven (spiritual seed—body members of Christ)
● sand which is upon the sea shore (natural Israel, the nation, converted to Christ)
● notice there are two groups, two salvations, one Savior!
● thy seed (spiritual and natural—with Jesus as their head)
2 Corinthians 5:19: …God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Jesus has provided the opportunity for reconciliation for all mankind and has committed to us (faithful Christians) the word or preaching to explain the future reconciliation of mankind.
Acts 15:16-17: After this I will return and will rebuild the tabernacle of David, which has fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will set it up (the nation of Israel restored); so that the rest of mankind may seek the LORD, even all the Gentiles (the world of mankind in God’s kingdom) who are called by My name, says the LORD who does all these things.
The tabernacle of David is the nation of Israel fully restored to faith in Jesus their Messiah (Amos 9:11-15; Jeremiah 30:3; 31:28,31-34; Zechariah 12:10; Ezekiel 36:26,27; 39:28-29). The rest of mankind will seek after the Lord in His future kingdom on earth. Your kingdom come…ON EARTH (Matthew 6:10).
Romans 11:30-31: For as you were once disobedient to God (before becoming Christians) yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience (natural Israel), even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy.
This verse shows that disobedient Israel who rejected their Messiah will in the future obtain mercy (not eternal torment) from God. This will be at the time they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son (Zechariah 12:10 KJV).
All these verses combined are sufficient to prove that not only does God have a plan to save and reward faithful Christians, but he also has a merciful plan to save all mankind.
Two groups will be saved:
Faithful Christians now, and the world of mankind in God’s future kingdom on earth.
Disobedient Israel. Only those who followed Jesus were, Jews, sons of Israel, Israel. Yes Jes reconciled all mankind and gave them hope and an approach for forgiveness of the sins they internet commit after being reconciled as to the inherited sin of Adam. I beleive your losing sight of a few things in your reason the bride doesn’t arrive until the Twinkling, there is no provision for the bride or mankind to go to heaven the space God resides in. The only Jew. The only member of Israel, had to be mental offspring of Abraham as Jesus pointed out, not all who say the are Israel are. Hope for all does not translate into a stand before God as forgiven of personal sin for all. I beleive now that you can see the significance of the Twinkling, if you search the significance of God of the air, or God of influence, you see the difference between meeting Jesus in the air, the Great cloud of witnesses. The hazy outline and being raised to heaven in awareness a oneness with Jesus and God. The order of forgiveness and for what and who’s sin is key. Please ponder these. Thank you for your inspiring example of patient thoughtfulness.
Dear Traveler,
Thank you again for your earnest observations. I appreciate the sincerity with which you ponder these deep things of God. Let me offer a few clarifications in response to the points you’ve raised:
1. On the Bride and the “Twinkling.”
You rightly note that the Bride is not complete until the “twinkling of an eye” change (1 Cor. 15:51–52). This is indeed the first resurrection of the Church—the faithful overcomers who share the heavenly calling (Rev. 20:6). But this does not mean there is no provision for the rest of mankind. Rather, the Bride, united with her Lord, becomes the very channel of blessing for the world. As Revelation 22:17 shows, after the Bride is complete, she joins the Spirit in saying, “Come… take of the water of life freely.”
2. On Israel and true sons of Abraham.
I agree—not all who are “of Israel” are Israel (Rom. 9:6–8). Jesus himself showed that being Abraham’s seed is not merely a matter of natural descent, but of faith. Still, the natural nation is not forever cast off. Paul assures us that “blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:25–26). Their restoration is part of the grand design: through them, blessing reaches “all the families of the earth” (Gen. 22:18). The Jews were tp be regathered to the land (Isa. 43:5-6 & Jer 30:3), never again to be removed (Amos 9:14) on the (millennial) day (Isa 11:11.)
3. On forgiveness and reconciliation.
You mention the order of forgiveness. It is important to distinguish between two aspects:
Faithful believers now, who by faith in the ransom, receive justification in advance and walk the narrow way.
The world of mankind, for whom reconciliation awaits the Kingdom. As Paul says, “God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). The ransom for Adam (1 Tim. 2:6; Rom. 5:18) provides the legal basis for this. Forgiveness of inherited Adamic sin extends to all; personal sins will be dealt with under Christ’s Kingdom government—either blotted out through obedience (Acts 3:19–21) or ending in second death for the incorrigible.
4. On meeting the Lord “in the air.”
The “air” (1 Thess. 4:17) is indeed symbolic. It represents the spiritual realm of authority, not the literal heavens where God dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16). The Church joins Christ in this invisible sphere of rulership, and the “clouds” represent the great company of witnesses and accompanying troubles of earth’s present distress. But this meeting is not for the Bride alone; it marks the beginning of a new dominion where Christ and his Church reign to bless the nations (Dan. 7:27).
5. The hope for all mankind.
You caution that “hope for all” does not mean forgiveness of personal sins apart from repentance and reform. I fully agree. The beauty of God’s plan is that the Bride and her Lord will establish a Kingdom of righteousness where mankind will be taught, disciplined, and judged in righteousness (Isa. 26:9; Acts 17:31). Only those who willingly accept that righteous arrangement will live. The others, refusing mercy, will face destruction in the second death.
Thus, in harmony with the ransom, two salvations are revealed:
The heavenly salvation of the Church now—the Bride who shares the “twinkling” change.
The earthly salvation of mankind in the Kingdom—restoration through the righteous reign of Christ and his glorified Bride.
In both cases, it is the same Savior, the same ransom, the same love of God working out His eternal purpose.
With appreciation for your patient reasoning and earnest faith,
Peter
I’m sure we covered coming forth to stand in front of God does not need the return to life. As for standing Judgement those who do not call on the name of Jesus remain already judged and stand before God as such. The no longer are in whats called memorial tombs, remembered by God. They are now in the tomb awaiting the second death and so on. we’ve covered this and while you seem to hold on to orthodox doctrine which has no working order, I applaud your effort until logic wins. At least you now understand some of the importance of the Twinkling.
I would like to leave you with this thought, while it says it’s seven times harder to come back to your senses after being trapped, it connects with God’s number in my mind and thus the need to again call on his power. most of your readers will be able to identify with this next part of the post, it’s a statistical fact of today that most are in this state along with those “Alive” who have been trapped.
Trapped Alive.
2 Timothy 2:26 and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one.
I’ve been thinking of sharing these thoughts for a while, although working to arrive a working frame work seemed the priority. Now I think maybe a bit of fresh thought might help.
(1 Corinthians 15:33-34) 33 Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. 34 Wake up to soberness in a righteous way and do not practice sin, for some are without knowledge of God. I am speaking to move YOU to shame.
What the scripture above relates, “make your path straight” , get it right. There is a frame work that must be grasp and maintained to continue to walk with God. If not you wind up back where you started.
I remember in the 70’s it hitting me how interesting the “internet”, or net as a title was. Chosen to describe the arrival of the information avenues of the information age. I read an article within that first few years that pointed out that within the first few hours of a new computer brought online, it was used to view pornography, this almost without exception in the United States. This fact made me think of this scripture,
(Matthew 4:19) . . .And he said to them: “Come after me, and I will make YOU fishers of men
We’ve discussed the concept that Satan is the “god of the air” or in other words the main influencer of mankind’s thinking. Also that Jesus will be the new “god of the air” when he arrives in the clouds, of the “Great cloud of witness’s” at the Twinkling.
Brings to mind a saying much used, ”what’s airing on tv today”. Now yes a lot here would be loose connections of conceptual statements. I’m sure this was present in the minds of Jesus’ followers when he was present too the reasoning on the connection to reality in general. This is our age, we must contribute advancement in the awareness’s of this age, given we now have a special advantage, the “spirit of understanding”. Take this thoughts as just that, thoughts.
Ok trapped alive. To be trapped alive you must first be alive. We’ve discussed this also, that born as Adams seed we are dead legally, remaining so unless we call on, exercise our belief in Jesus and the promise of return to life he promises us. Let’s just except for the moment you’ve taken in the milk of the truth, eaten some vegetables and are solidly eating meat so to speak. While drinking in the milk, or eating vegetables, you are most vulnerable to be side tracked from your pursuit of truth. So choked, lacking root as the bible describes it. But given the ingesting of meat we gain a lasting measure of strength, a stand, erect,. At this point we are likely to be noticed by Satan.
I’ll deal with just this one way that we can be trapped alive like a fish in a “net” or a bird in a cage, with the door open, pornography.
(Psalm 91:3) . . .For he himself will deliver you from the trap of the birdcatcher, From the pestilence causing adversities.
What most don’t or don’t want to deal with is that what’s called harmless imagery, produces in mankind a desire to view more. This is promoted by both, physical, mental, and emotional “habit”. As the body receives the chemical change or gratification, the Endorphins. This
, pleasure generates a craving for more. At first it seems simply a level of excitement that relatively harmless, although maybe along with a bit of guilt, and the thought that we should stop.
But “want” is a power, very underestimated. Soon we find the goal of stopping comes to us less, and seems hard to stay awake to. At this point we probably aren’t aware that we are becoming addicted. Soon we know this new truth, although we know the truth, are free from the world, if we so choose, we find that walking with God, walking through the open door, the door keeper Jesus, has provided is no longer within our power of “self control”, trapped alive.
(James 4:17) 17 Therefore, if one knows how to do what is right and yet does not do it, it is a sin for him.
(2 Timothy 2:26-3:7) 26 and they may come back to their proper senses out from the snare of the Devil, seeing that they have been caught alive by him for the will of that one. 3 But know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, self-assuming, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up [with pride], lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having a form of godly devotion but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 For from these arise those men who slyly work their way into households and lead as their captives weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, 7 always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth.
This has been enjoyable. I sincerely pray for your use of your perceptive powers in these considerations, your brother, traveler.
Dear Traveler,
I always appreciate the thoughtful way you reason through these matters. The “trapped alive” illustration you used is a powerful one, and I agree entirely that the Adversary’s snares are subtle, especially when they prey upon human weakness and habit. Paul’s warning that “bad associations spoil useful habits” (1 Cor. 15:33) is as timely now as ever, and your mention of pornography is an apt modern example of the “birdcatcher’s snare” (Ps. 91:3). These are real dangers to God’s people, and none of us can afford to be careless.
At the same time, I would like to return to the larger framework of resurrection and judgment that you raised. You noted that those not calling on the name of Jesus remain already judged, and in one sense that is true — “he that believeth not is condemned already” (John 3:18). But Scripture also shows that God has “appointed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained” (Acts 17:31). This judgment day is not merely a sentencing, but a period of trial and opportunity under Christ’s Kingdom rule. That is why “all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth” (John 5:28–29). Their coming forth is not simply to immediate destruction, but to stand for trial in that great Day, when “the books were opened” (Rev. 20:12).
Thus the memorial tombs still serve their purpose — they picture that God remembers the dead, not to condemn them without remedy, but to restore them to life and give them the opportunity to learn righteousness (Isa. 26:9). Those who prove incorrigible under that Kingdom rule will indeed go into second death, but not without first having the full benefit of Christ’s mediatorial reign (1 Tim. 2:5–6).
I do appreciate your stress on the battle of the mind and heart. It is true that “frame of mind” determines whether we walk with God. Yet we also recognize that God’s plan embraces not only those who are called now to the heavenly hope, but also the vast majority of mankind who have not yet had their full day of trial. That is the beauty of the ransom — it “tasted death for every man” (Heb. 2:9).
So I agree with you that the dangers of our present age require vigilance, sobriety, and self-control (2 Tim. 3:1–5). But I also take comfort that the great Deliverer will shortly finish binding the strong man, and “all the families of the earth” shall be blessed through Abraham’s Seed (Gen. 28:14; Gal. 3:29). That broader hope keeps me steady when I see how deep the snares run in our time.
Thank you again, brother, for sharing these thoughtful connections. May we both continue to sharpen one another, and to “stand fast in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free” (Gal. 5:1).
With warm Christian regard,
Peter K
Seems I must scroll starting at bottom of our exchanges to find your latest comment. Sorry if it seems I miss replying to points.
It seems that those hearing and coming forth from the tombs is a main point. Even the dead hear and come for, not to life but Judgement it says. The thousand year period of Christ’s reign is without out cry or suffering, so obviously there could not be unbelievers broght back to life in this period to somehow carrying on their former stands until convinced. Obviously it would be doubly painfully for those who did beleive and call on Jesus. Crossed from death to life,probably having tried in Ernest to save there loved ones, to see them reject again and be put to death in this new system. Jesus under God has complete control over the grave so when they consider a persons stand in life they have two choices based on the free will of those who took stands while in existence. One forgiven now alive to God in existence or in the grave, two judged, not forgiven. Dead to God in existence and in the grave. Time for reward, called out for consideration. The reward for those alive, return to life, existence, those dead remaining already judged, left in the grave. The Bible is very, very clear on these to results. No yes for that small group tha took a stand on the law within them, and given our natural inclination, with no spirit of adoption, small chance of carrying this law within over a life time, maybe some would be brought into the new system. This seems unlikely to represent a number we need to discuss. The entire thrust of the scripture lays out the life and death consequences of following God or not. The reality you are trying to lay out has very few that would affect a large number of humanity. So just forgive Adam and Eve their first mistakes showing patience and stop all the future suffering. The reason this didn’t happen is the same that keeps you from entering the grave in the wrong frame of mind, and the having the possibility of a return to existence. I guess I should ask do you beleive Adam and Eve are also coming back?
Dear Traveler,
Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. I do see why you reason as you do, but I believe the Scriptures set out a broader and more hopeful arrangement than the two outcomes you’ve described.
You mention John 5:28–29, that all in the graves shall “hear his voice and come forth.” The passage itself makes a distinction: some “to a resurrection of life” and others “to a resurrection of judgment.” A resurrection of judgment does not mean they simply remain condemned — otherwise there would be no purpose to a resurrection at all. Rather, it means they will stand trial during the appointed “day in which God will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom He hath ordained” (Acts 17:31). That day is the thousand-year reign of Christ, when the books are opened and mankind is given opportunity to learn righteousness (Rev. 20:12; Isa. 26:9).
The picture is not of the saints rejoicing while watching their loved ones perish again, but of the saints — the Bride with Christ — sharing in the great work of blessing and teaching the nations (Rev. 22:17). The very reason the thousand years is described as a time without crying or pain (Rev. 21:4) is because the former things — sin, ignorance, injustice — are passing away under Christ’s reign. It would hardly be a blessing for “all the families of the earth” (Gen. 12:3; Acts 3:25) if the majority were never even given their day of trial.
As for Adam and Eve, yes — I believe they too will come back in the resurrection. Christ gave himself “a ransom for all” (1 Tim. 2:6), and Adam was the first man included in “all.” It is true their trial will be weighty, given the responsibility they once bore, but justice and mercy alike require that the ransom cover them as well as us. To deny them that opportunity would make Christ’s sacrifice less than universal. Hebrews 2:9 states plainly that he “tasted death for every man.”
You asked why God did not simply forgive Adam at once and spare the race the suffering. The answer is bound up in the demonstration of God’s character. By permitting sin and death to run their course, God has allowed mankind to learn — painfully, but lastingly — the consequences of disobedience. When the Kingdom restores mankind, that lesson will be forever engraved on human experience. Thus free will will still exist, but no one will ever need to doubt the wisdom of obedience again.
So yes, dear brother, I do believe in the resurrection of Adam and Eve, as well as the whole world of mankind. Some will inherit life immediately (the bride of Christ), others will come forth to judgment and discipline, but all will be given the fair opportunity that the ransom was designed to secure.
With warm regard and continued appreciation of your zeal for these matters,
Peter K
Hi Peter. Strange as it seems, on my phone I have to sort through all our conversations to find your latest after seeing it in the side bar.
I loved this last one, thanks. In the 1,000 years brother will not teach brother. Having gone through the Twinkling all will be enlightened. They will use the full inheritance, as the heavens will be hoped to them as it was at their brother’s , Jesus’s adoption, and cross from death to life.
The picture fleshs out easly once you grasp the Twinkle, and the nature of adoption.
Yes Jesus’s delivery of the ransom price for our Father did re online those who never had any choice but being dead slaves by birth and law. This Ransom price was only of value to those that exercised faith, not to everyone it was offered to.But Adam and Eve had a choice. Within the thousand years mankind will have the opertunity to make a choice. Those falling, you know, Down,UP, God’s thoughts higher and being acquired, sorry let the joy of it raise me UP, for a moment. Soooo, those that chose a path, or more accurately hold a train of consideration leading away from common pursuit with God, will lose life. They with those who used free will to move away from God,did not exercise faith, will be thrown into the lake of fire. Obviously they won’t be alive.
The importance of a consideration is the frame of mind it starts to construct. The Bible/God tells us take every thought into captivity. Cultivate a relationship with yourself that puts you in control of the flesh, the house you inhabit, earth. Although I’d like to meet them Adam was weak, Eve was received.life and death are absolute concepts as are the consequences.
Sure it’s natural to wish none of this has happened. Exactly why the question can only be ask once. Not once now and again in population of perfect people,,, slowly watching it play out again. Who was it that was ask to say something to those being left behind as he entered into death. The response was something like this, if they didn’t listen in life what to you believe they will he someone from death speaks to them. One of those “THE PROPHET” Kahlil Gibran, moments. Profound happens every time it arrives for you,when and where, or through any one,is and has the “ring” of truth.
“Thus free will will still exist, but no one will ever need to doubt the wisdom of obedience again.”
You seem to be losing focus brother. A statement like this doesn’t seem on your normal level.
“Need” so your thinking God created Adam and Eve, with a need that lead them away,,, that, we will not have. Rather Adam was not deceived but fell anyway. A train of consideration even when you recover has damaged reality. We call it carrying a weight. “Put off every weight” only happens when your mind covers “distance ” UP. Down, to fall is away from God. So ” no man is fit for life,Adam’s offspring, fathered by Satan in that very day Eve was received must be adopted, which only happens, now. You see because everything connects that is right, no leap of Faith is needed. I hope your frame of mind isn’t wearing down answering all of who seem to just drop by. Thanks brother
Sorry about the miss spell and wrong words. I’ll try to not send unless I have time to correct. Coffees running out, the days work is pressing, I hit send mostly experiencing, that’s enough time given. A weakness I’ll work with.
Traveler,
Thank you again for your thoughtful words and for the heartfelt way you express your hope in God’s plan. I rejoice that we share the conviction that the ransom of Christ is central, that obedience is essential, and that the ultimate outcome of God’s plan will be a universe where His will is done on earth as in heaven (Matthew 6:10).
You touched on several deep matters, and I’d like to reflect on a few points you raised.
1. The Value of the Ransom
You rightly emphasize that Adam and Eve had a choice, and their disobedience brought sin and death upon all their offspring (Romans 5:12). Yet, the ransom of Christ was “a corresponding price” (1 Timothy 2:5–6)—the perfect life of one man for the forfeited life of another, and thus for all who were in him. This secured the legal right for every descendant of Adam to have a future opportunity for life. Paul writes, “as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order” (1 Corinthians 15:22–23).
Faith is indeed required to benefit from that ransom, but the testimony of it is said to come to “all in due time” (1 Timothy 2:6). The vast majority of mankind has not yet had the full light, and so the Millennial reign will be the great day when knowledge covers the earth (Isaiah 11:9).
2. Resurrection and Enlightenment
You mentioned that in the thousand years “brother will not teach brother.” That recalls Jeremiah’s prophecy: “They shall teach no more every man his neighbor, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest” (Jeremiah 31:34). This is indeed the blessing of the New Covenant, administered by Christ and His Bride.
But before all reach that point of enlightenment, there is a process. John 5:28–29 assures us that all that are in the graves shall hear His voice and come forth—not to immediate perfection, but to a trial in which they may be raised up, step by step, out of sin and weakness into righteousness (Acts 24:15; Isaiah 26:9).
3. Free Will and Obedience
You noted that free will continues, but that none will need to doubt obedience again. That is beautifully said. God does not take away man’s power of choice, but through the experience of evil now—and the thorough contrast with the reign of righteousness to come—all intelligent creatures will have learned forever that His way is best. This is what Ecclesiastes 7:29 tells us: “God made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions.” The Millennium will prove, beyond question, that life and blessing flow only from willing obedience to God’s will (Deuteronomy 30:19).
4. The “Scarcely Saved” and the World’s Trial
You raised before the text, “If the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?” (1 Peter 4:18). This applies especially to the Church now, being tested under difficult conditions in the present evil world. Their salvation is “with difficulty” because it requires sacrifice, endurance, and overcoming while Satan is still the god of this world (2 Corinthians 4:4). But the ungodly and sinner will appear in their own time of trial—in the Day of Judgment (Acts 17:31). There they will not be condemned without hope, but judged righteously, each according to their response to Christ when the knowledge of the Lord fills the earth. Those who persist in rebellion, even with full light, will indeed face the second death (Revelation 20:14–15).
5. Adoption Through Christ
You spoke of adoption. Yes, all of Adam’s race must be adopted out of death into God’s family. The Apostle Paul writes, “Because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father” (Galatians 4:6). The Bride of Christ experiences this adoption now in a special way, but during the Kingdom all the willing and obedient of mankind will likewise be restored into full sonship with God (Romans 8:21).
———–
Dear brother, I believe we are striving toward the same vision—life, light, and love restored through Christ’s reign. Where we may see the details differently, let us keep searching the Scriptures together (Acts 17:11), knowing that in God’s due time all His purposes will be made plain.
With warm regard in Christ,
Peter K.
Peter, as always I appreciate the way in which you patiently respond. You are right I beleive we both seek the same goal. Although I can’t embrace your suffer now, suffer again later picture of the reign of christ, I do believe in your earnest efforts to make “sense” of a “Way” that minimizes the error of Adam and Eve. I see many of the lessons learned are the same for both of us, there is a bride of christ to be kings and priests to serve a larger body. All will “hear” and be rewarded in a Resurrection event, and peace will come. We both want a time where suffering does not exist. I enjoy the continued depth of your attempt to reason with me. I believe its not in the scriptures we’ll find life, but in the connection of love snuggling brothers and sisters in belief in christ,have, not the amount they get , “right” in the Hazy outline we now have. You do a great service here on this site dimenstrating brotherly patience. I’ve never seen a congregation that is not in desperate need of the grasp of your approach and heart felt motivations. I freely admit I find release in your willingness to reason beyond what I’ve found to be normal lack of depth in the general population, even among those that would be teachers in the various provisions, Divisions, denominations, attempting to help us see the “one true congregation of Jesus’ followers”.
It’s not always to long a sentence, or to deep the thought that denote a heretic, I beleave, but the steadfast belief that new thought is to be feared, that does it. I pray for all who associate with the zealots, the wolves, in our “way” of reason, our taking of the “upward path”. As it states “the thinking man will be hated”. For those who need it, I’m saying “thank you for your time.”
Sincerely your brother.
Traveler,
Thank you, dear brother, for your kind and generous words. Your spirit of humility and desire for truth shines through each of your messages, and I deeply appreciate your continued fellowship and willingness to reason together on the precious things of God.
I agree that our shared goal is clear: to see the time when suffering, sin, and death shall be no more—when the creation itself “shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God” (Romans 8:21).
You are right to emphasize love as the great binding power among all who seek Christ. As our Lord said, “By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another” (John 13:35). No amount of doctrinal precision can replace that spirit of brotherly affection.
Still, I believe that Scripture’s testimony about the process of restoration—its order and purpose—is also part of that love, for it reveals the wisdom and justice of our Heavenly Father’s plan. Allow me to share a few reflections on the points you raised:
1. The Present Suffering and Future Glory
You mentioned that you cannot quite accept a “suffer now, suffer again later” view of Christ’s reign. I understand that concern. But the sufferings of this present Gospel Age are unique to the class called to be the Bride of Christ. They “suffer with Him” now that they may also “reign with Him” then (Romans 8:17; 2 Timothy 2:12).
Their trials are permitted in a world still under the power of evil, as they are being tested and proved for their future service. But when the Kingdom is fully established, their suffering will be complete—forever past. They will then share with Christ in removing suffering from the rest of humanity, as priests and kings (Revelation 20:6).
Thus, mankind in general will not “suffer again later,” but will experience correction, education, and uplift under righteous government—“when the judgments of the LORD are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness” (Isaiah 26:9). The reign of Christ is not a time of renewed pain, but of healing and restoration—though not without the firm discipline that leads to righteousness (Isaiah 35:8–10; Acts 3:21).
2. The Bride and the Larger Body
We fully agree that the Bride of Christ serves a larger purpose. As you beautifully put it, they are to be kings and priests for the blessing of all. Revelation 22:17 paints the picture: “The Spirit and the Bride say, Come… and whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.”
This invitation shows the Bride’s ministry is outward-looking—an expression of love and service toward the entire race. Their own transformation now is not for privilege, but for preparation—to share in the great work of blessing “all families of the earth” (Genesis 22:18).
3. Life Found in Love—and in Truth
I deeply agree with your thought that life is not found merely in the letter of Scripture, but in the living connection of love. Yet we remember that true love and true doctrine are never in conflict. Jesus prayed, “Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth” (John 17:17). Love without truth can drift into sentiment; truth without love can harden into judgment—but together they reflect the full character of God (1 John 4:8).
So, while we “see through a glass darkly” (1 Corinthians 13:12), our study of the divine plan is not an exercise in speculation, but an act of worship—an endeavor to know our Father better and reflect His image more clearly.
4. Thinking Men and Humility of Faith
Your observation that “the thinking man will be hated” has a ring of truth. Jesus Himself said, “If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you” (John 15:20). Yet how blessed are those who hold to faith and reason together, refusing both blind zeal and cold intellect. The Apostle urges, “Be not children in understanding… but in understanding be men” (1 Corinthians 14:20).
The path upward requires both heart and mind engaged in harmony—faith seeking understanding, not pride seeking superiority.
Brother, I am truly thankful for your fellowship in these matters. You remind me that patient discussion and mutual respect are themselves proofs of the Spirit at work. I believe we are both, in our own ways, striving to walk that upward path that leads nearer to our Father, through Christ.
May His grace continue to enlighten both our minds and our hearts, until “the knowledge of the glory of the Lord shall cover the earth as the waters cover the sea” (Habakkuk 2:14).
Your brother in Christ,
Peter K.
Connecting to my last comment about God’s people eventually known as Isreal, the offspring of Abraham. These people under God’s influence where put under a system of government know also as Israel to the world, although it was accurately the Nation of Israel. Like Moses lead these people with their many followers out of the wilderness, Jesus lead these people under God’s influence out of the “nation” over them. People get confused when Paul refers to his brothers among the Israelites, a reference to those bone under the nation. Paul could not know which of those still identifying with the nation would “hear” and respond to the call to follow Jesus, excepting him as The messiah. Paul hoped that many like himself who thought you could be born a Jew, a son of Israel, would wake “UP” to the fact that in fact you must have the right frame of mind and heart to be a Jew, one of God’s People.
Hi Traveler,
Nice to hear from you again.
Your comment touches on important spiritual truths about the identity of God’s people and the transition from the nation of Israel to the spiritual calling through Jesus as the Messiah. The teachings emphasize that God’s people, initially represented through the physical descendants of Abraham, were organized as a nation to reflect His purpose. However, as you noted, the shift came with Jesus, who fulfilled the Law and opened the way for a spiritual Israel, not bound by physical descent but by faith and a heart aligned with God’s will.
When Paul speaks of his brothers among the Israelites, he indeed refers to those born under the nation’s covenant, yet he underscores that true belonging to God’s people hinges on accepting Jesus as the promised Messiah. This aligns with the idea that being a “Jew” or part of God’s chosen is not about birthright alone but about a transformed mind and heart, responding to the call of faith. As you suggest, Paul’s hope was for many to “wake up” to this truth, recognizing that righteousness comes through faith in Christ, not merely through the Law or national identity.
This understanding highlights the broader invitation to all—regardless of background—to become part of God’s people by accepting the Messiah and living in harmony with His teachings. It’s a call to spiritual awakening, as you put it, to embrace the true essence of what it means to be part of God’s purpose.
Yes you have most of it, but Jesus poited out that ” the kingdom among you will be taken from you.” Kingdom means range of influence, or in this case those under God’s influence, in other words God’s people. Not understanding that the kingdom of people referred to these “true Jews” is why the “Christian ” world does not understand matt. 6-5’15, the lord’s prayer. You see that God gives ears to hear, and eyes to see through the pouring out of his active energy, commonly called holy spirit. This force acts as God wills for each use he intends. In the case of those under his influence andhis adopted children. It gives increased mental capacity to understand those truths revealed by Jesus constuting the UPward call, or path. This path when covered will cause the pursuer to arrive eventually at the Twinkling and a full understanding of God’s will, generated by the full adoption and its full inheritance. So when the request is made ” let your kingdom come” it’s a request for God to pour out the promised spirit. At the Twinkling God’s will, will be done on earth as li is in heaven.
Dear Traveler,
Thank you for sharing such thoughtful observations again. You raise some important points, and I’d like to respond by connecting them with the Scriptural record.
First, you’re right that being part of God’s people is not a matter of physical descent alone. Jesus told the Jews of his day that if they were truly Abraham’s children they would do the works of Abraham (John 8:39). Paul also explained, “He is not a Jew who is one outwardly… but he is a Jew who is one inwardly” (Rom. 2:28–29). So true Israel is made up of those whose hearts are in harmony with God. At the same time, Paul assures us that God still has a future plan for natural Israel: “Blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And so all Israel will be saved” (Rom. 11:25–26). Their eventual restoration is part of God’s larger plan to bless “all the families of the earth” (Gen. 22:18).
When Jesus warned that “the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a nation bearing the fruits of it” (Matt. 21:43), he showed that the kingdom means God’s active rule over those who submit to Him. Since Israel as a nation rejected Messiah, that privilege passed to the spiritual Israel — those who walk by faith (Gal. 6:16).
You also noted how it is God’s spirit that gives “ears to hear” and “eyes to see.” Exactly so. The prophet said, “The eyes of those who see will not be dim, and the ears of those who hear will listen” (Isa. 32:3). Paul prayed that the Ephesians would have “the eyes of your understanding enlightened” (Eph. 1:18). God’s active power awakens and strengthens those He is calling.
As for the upward call, Paul said he pressed toward “the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus” (Phil. 3:14). This is the heavenly invitation given to the Bride of Christ. At the end of the age, they will be changed “in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye” (1 Cor. 15:52). Meeting the Lord “in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17) is symbolic of entering into association with Christ’s rulership, not going into the literal heavens where God dwells in unapproachable light (1 Tim. 6:16).
But this heavenly hope does not mean God has no provision for the rest of mankind. The ransom of Christ covers all: “God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself” (2 Cor. 5:19). Jesus promised that “all who are in the graves will hear his voice and come forth” (John 5:28–29). Under the Kingdom, the world will be taught righteousness: “When Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness” (Isa. 26:9). Those who respond will receive life; those who refuse will face the second death (Acts 3:23; Rev. 20:14–15).
Finally, when we pray, “Let Your Kingdom come, Your will be done on earth as it is in heaven” (Matt. 6:10), we are asking both for God’s spirit to work in us now (Luke 11:13) and for the full establishment of His Kingdom, when “the earth will be full of the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea” (Isa. 11:9).
So in harmony with what you’ve shared, we can see both the present work of God’s spirit in preparing the Bride for the upward call, and the future work of the Kingdom in restoring Israel and blessing all mankind.
With appreciation for your thoughtful reasoning,
Peter K
I always enjoy your response. I’m not sure how to keep you in touch withe God’s people who predates, the title Isreal or Isralite and the national organization, called by the name Israel. These are distinctly different things. Those under God’s influence. GOD’S KINDOM Always had many associating with the who were not true followers. It was r
The same in Jesus day. When the Bible relates to God’s people it never embraced those associated but not under his influence. So while phisical lineage comes into play in cases like Abraham’s, it still is not the determining factor to say one is one of God’s people. All hear the UPward call, not just those who eventually fill the bride class to serve the great cloud of witnesses. All are anointed by the knowledge given by God through Jesus and the affect of the adoptive spirit. The promises made to Israel were not made to a nation political organization. But to a people, who would eventually constitute God’s rebuilt temple. You get a little closer each time you try to make orthodox doctrine fit into a logical order. Focus on frame of mind as the determining factor for God’s people and for the eventual goal for the return to the garden not heaven.
Dear Traveler,
Thank you again for your thoughtful reply. I always appreciate how carefully you consider these matters. You’re right — there has always been a difference between those merely associated with God’s people outwardly and those truly under His influence. Even in ancient Israel, “not all who are of Israel are Israel” (Rom. 9:6). Jesus himself showed this when he spoke of those who claimed Abraham as their father but did not do the works of Abraham (John 8:39–40).
At the same time, God’s dealings with the nation of Israel were not meaningless. The Law Covenant and the promises were given to them (Rom. 9:4–5). Paul tells us that their temporary “casting off” leads to blessing for the Gentiles, but their eventual regathering will mean “life from the dead” for the world (Rom. 11:12, 15, 25–27). So while the promises were always intended for a faithful people — a spiritual seed — God still has a future purpose for natural Israel as a channel of blessing to mankind (Isa. 2:2–4; Zech. 8:22–23).
You mention that all hear the upward call. I would agree that the knowledge of God’s plan is eventually for all, but Paul makes a distinction in ranks of resurrection: “Each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at his presence” (1 Cor. 15:23). The Bride, the spiritual temple class, is indeed called and anointed now, being prepared as “living stones” for God’s temple (1 Pet. 2:5). This is a limited calling — the “little flock” (Luke 12:32) who share the heavenly inheritance with Christ.
Then, under that completed temple arrangement, the broader blessings of knowledge and adoption into God’s earthly family will reach the world of mankind. That is when “the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord” (Hab. 2:14) and when all who have not known Him will be taught of God (Isa. 54:13; Jer. 31:33–34). The garden you mention — the restored Eden — is precisely the inheritance of obedient mankind: “The meek shall inherit the earth, and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace” (Ps. 37:11, 29; Matt. 5:5).
So I would put it this way:
• God’s true people have always been defined by faith and obedience, not mere association.
• The upward call is limited to the Bride, who will serve as kings and priests with Christ (Rev. 20:6).
• The knowledge and anointing of the spirit will indeed extend to all mankind under the Kingdom, leading to their restoration to the earthly paradise (Acts 3:19–21).
This way, both aspects of God’s promise are fulfilled — the heavenly seed (the Bride of Christ) and the earthly seed (restored mankind through Israel) — together blessing all nations (Gen. 22:18).
With warm appreciation for your continued fellowship in these deep truths,
Peter K
The law covenant and promises. We’re not given to a nation but to a people. The scriptures are very clear on this. The new covenant also was given to a people applied in the future. Rank is indeed mentioned, first Jesus receives his reward, then on his return, all, who have the spirit of adoption in them ” hear”, and complete the upward call with the completion of their inheritance. All meet Jesus on his, Return, in the “air”. No mention of Heaven. I beleive brothe Wright a Catholic scholar has realized this and published it also. Not that logic and close examination needs, backup. The nation, the organizing of a people are one thing, Order of rules. Rules are not able to receive. The people were warned that the law would lead to only one thing, condemnation as it did. Jesus the new head of this nation, order. Said straight out he was resolving this order and would put in it’s place a new order, Nation. Israel, the people, did receive and acknowledge this new order. There is no place for an old order that did not serve the people. Produce fruit. The new order did avheive this, Jesus part of the people, Israel was the first fruit among many. The people under God’s influence constitute Gods kingdom. Those people, the “True Jews”,by frame of mind, the sons of Israel, by frame of mind, the offspring of Abraham by frame of mind, followed their new king under God’s influence God’s influence. The nation was not at the time Jesus arrived obeying God’s influence. Abraham’s lineage physically had little true meaning in all this, outside of a historic fact and this was pointed out to those thinking the nation was God’s representative and those thinking they were Jews but were not. Stiff necked in pride these people who may have been part of Israel at one time, or who were simply born into this national group. Lead the national order against God and his son. Even so they were offered the chance to turn around, to follow Jesus. But did not. This his historic fact. Frame of mind starting with Adam and Eve, must be followed to establish a working framework that allows the information in the Bible and in reality to be put in a logical order. The fact that the nation of Israel continues to deny God is however a blessing of sorts to the members of Israel that left the nation because it draws attention from the True Jews, now members of Jesus’congregation, and nolonger Jews but still Sons of Israel. How dark Satan’s mind to carry out the persecution against a national group,because Jesus’s congregation is under God’s protection. A protection when you think on it we could have never thought up and the world still doesn’t grasp. I can’t know what pressures being an administrator places on you but I respect your attempts to carry through with them.
Roman’s 12:1 with your power of reason, is the sacred service, pursue that which God also pursues.
2 Corinthians 13:5, keep on testing that you, are, in the faith.
Thank you for establishing a regular opertunity to have an exchange on this level brother. As always, acupuncture of coffee in one had the phone in the other and the spelling problems go on testing your patience I’m sure.
Dear Traveler,
I always value the time you take to reason these matters out, and I can see your deep respect for the way God has worked through His people in different ages. You are right that the Law Covenant by itself could not give life — it served as a “tutor to lead to Christ” (Gal. 3:24), exposing sin and pointing to the need of the Redeemer. As Paul said, “by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified” (Gal. 2:16). The condemnation it revealed is precisely what made Christ’s ransom necessary.
Still, I would make a distinction that the Scriptures themselves emphasize. The promises and covenants were entrusted to Israel as a nation (Rom. 9:4–5). Yes, only the faithful within Israel truly received the blessing, but God nevertheless used that national framework for His purposes until Christ came (Amos 3:2). The fact that Jesus was born under the Law (Gal. 4:4) shows that God had not abandoned that arrangement until the appointed time.
Now, as you say, Christ inaugurated a new order — the New Covenant — but notice carefully: this covenant is indeed made “with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah” (Jer. 31:31; Heb. 8:8–10). Through Israel it extends to all nations, just as God promised Abraham: “In thy seed shall all nations of the earth be blessed” (Gen. 22:18). Israel’s stumbling therefore does not cancel the promise but delays its fulfillment until the appointed “times of restitution of all things” (Acts 3:21). Paul explains that their temporary blindness means riches for the Gentiles, but their eventual acceptance will be “life from the dead” (Rom. 11:12, 15, 25–27).
Regarding the “air,” you rightly note it symbolizes the sphere of Christ’s presence. Meeting the Lord “in the air” (1 Thess. 4:17) denotes a new spiritual dominion, invisible to the world but powerful in its influence. The Bride class, the “little flock” (Luke 12:32), share that spiritual inheritance with Christ — not merely by frame of mind, but by actual change into his likeness (1 John 3:2; 1 Cor. 15:51–52). Then, under that completed heavenly Kingdom, the rest of mankind will be uplifted on earth. Thus two salvations — one heavenly, one earthly — harmonize God’s plan.
So, while I agree with you that mere physical descent never guaranteed favor, we cannot dismiss God’s choice of Israel as the channel through which His blessings are ordered. The “true Jew” is one inwardly (Rom. 2:28–29), yet God has promised to use even natural Israel as an instrument in the age to come. This preserves both the historic role and the prophetic future.
I deeply appreciate your fellowship in examining these truths, and your reminder of Romans 12:1 — using the power of reason as sacred service. May we continue proving all things (2 Cor. 13:5), that we might hold fast to what is good.
With warm Christian regard,
Peter K
Connected to my last post. Remember Jesus pointed out it is not physical lineage that determines you are one of God’s people, in his day termed Jew. “Those who say they are Jews but are not” this an observation of those who depended on physical lineage. So although physical lineage was brought up it was only to point out to the nation of Israel that no matter how you looked at it Jesus would be the awaited messiah.
I’m new here so this should be under some other comments I beleive. But reading a little on this site it seem ther is a common misconception relating to resurrection. Resurrection is a process not a result. To stand before God and receive your reward.some receive a return to existencefrom the grave some remain in the grave already judged because the did not call on the name of christ. Jesus was given a kingship over the living and the dead, in that he was head is those given life and the keeper of those left in the grave awaiting the coming destruction. It is sad that only a few find the narrow path. It is however a life saying work to spread the word.
Once Gods right to decide right and wrong, his soverinty was called into question, no one could be destroyed until the question is answered. Being loving we wish all to be saved, but those who chose other paths have God’s word it can be played out once and they will recieve the reward earned.. GOD IS BOND BY HIS WORD AMONG OTHER THINGS It also helps to keep track of the fact that there is only one Savior God, and one savior lower case from among us Jesus. One King,over all, one king. Lower case Jesus over us now.
There is a simple order to the reality that is.
Hi Traveler. Your comments about the resurrection process made me think of some questions that might make for an interesting discussion. You are welcome to respond if you are so inclined.
Ultimately who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally lost?
Will a child that dies before the age of accountability have a resurrection opportunity?
The people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Noah. Will they have a resurrection opportunity?
Old civilizations in South America never had access to the Bible that we know of. Would good people who lived according to their God provided conscience have any future hope of a resurrection process?
How can anyone before Christ be saved, not having accepted Jesus as their personal savior?
I think it would be interesting to consider scriptures relating to these questions if you would like. Or perhaps you want to consider another topic.
“Will a child that dies before the age of accountability have a resurrection opportunity?”
These subjects are difficult although clear, But hard to relate to a mixed audience, not wanting to weaken those with a weaker understanding. The law given by God is quite clear on the accountability of a child who is under age, it depends on the parents/head of the household. Jesus as an example although a Son of God, was adopted by Joseph, and so came to be under the law of condemnation. The law of condemnation was for all of humanity a judgment, if you did not live free of sin that is. Had Jesus not presented himself to be baptized, do Gods will, while in slaves form, he would have died under this law. So that’s the simple answer.
In all this, people forget that humanity left Gods path when our parents did. We all are considered dead as long as we are off spring of Adam. Now here again we see the importance of frame of mind. The answering of the question of God’s right to decide right and wrong has as many facets as Humanity and the Angels attempts to find life apart from God and his suggested direction. One of these attempts was ask for when man ask for perfect law, which they were warned about, in that it would condemn them, as it did. We ask for Kings, which never worked out very well. Many direction have been tried, war for example and so on.
(1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?”.
In reality we have “self evident truth” placed in front of us, as the creation. In that creation relating to humanity there is a law or awarness written into us you could say, by our nature. We have a sense of right and wrong. It’s on this base that mankind before Jesus and after, was judged or forgiven. Remember we are the offspring of Abraham who did not know Jesus or was ever under the law given to Israel.
14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused.
“people of Nineveh repented at the preaching of Noah. Will they have a resurrection opportunity?”
All will receive a resurrection, to life/return to existence, or to remain in the grave awaiting the coming destruction. Outside of Jesus no man is fit for life, but must be forgiven. We are not Judges. Resurrection is a process carried out by God through Jesus, not the result of life or death/destruction.
There is one more interesting aspect of this “question of Sovereignty” until it is answered no being can be destroyed. God is bond by his word and the law he lives by to allow the question to reach it’s conclusion. This really shows why an “Over-view” is necessary. With out this frame work, questions that are answered simply in the Bible can not be understood in a “WAY” that makes a logical conclusions able to be arrived at.
“Ultimately who will be eternally saved and who will be eternally lost?”
We just touched on the answer in the last few sentences. First remember that immortality just means life without natural death. Mankind and the Angels have ask for and tried many “Ways” to find life without following Our Fathers direction of pursuit. We are close to the last possibility to be considered, a large population of Perfect humanity. This will be those of the Twinkling and their offspring born during the thousand year reign of Jesus. Those that fail this time period will lose life and await the coming destruction with those already in the grave. Everyone left at the end of the thousand years will have never lost life, either in their stay in the grave before the Twinkling or after.
(1 Peter 4:18) 18 “And if the righteous [man] is being saved with difficulty, where will the ungodly [man] and the sinner make a showing?”.
(Romans 2:12-29) 12 For instance, all those who sinned without law will also perish without law; but all those who sinned under law will be judged by law. 13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare. 17 If, now, you are a Jew in name and are resting upon law and taking pride in God, 18 and you know his will and approve of things that are excellent because you are orally instructed out of the Law; 19 and you are persuaded that you are a guide of the blind, a light for those in darkness, 20 a corrector of the unreasonable ones, a teacher of babes, and having the framework of the knowledge and of the truth in the Law— 21 do you, however, the one teaching someone else, not teach yourself? You, the one preaching “Do not steal,” do you steal? 22 You, the one saying “Do not commit adultery,” do you commit adultery? You, the one expressing abhorrence of the idols, do you rob temples? 23 You, who take pride in law, do you by your transgressing of the Law dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is being blasphemed on account of YOU people among the nations”; just as it is written. 25 Circumcision is, in fact, of benefit only if you practice law; but if you are a transgressor of law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 If, therefore, an uncircumcised person keeps the righteous requirements of the Law, his uncircumcision will be counted as circumcision, will it not? 27 And the uncircumcised [person] that is such by nature will, by carrying out the Law, judge you who with its written code and circumcision are a transgressor of law. 28 For he is not a Jew who is one on the outside, nor is circumcision that which is on the outside upon the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one on the inside, and [his] circumcision is that of the heart by spirit, and not by a written code. The praise of that one comes, not from men, but from God.
Travelor – I really appreciated your detailed answer. You are clearly very knowledgeable about scriptures and very thoughtful in your consideration of these issues. Although I don’t see everything exactly the way you said it, you have my respect.
If I understand correctly, you believe that a child who dies underage is judged based on their parents standing with God. This reminds me of Jeremiah 31:29: which states that people will no longer say, “The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge”.
When you say that Jesus came under the “law of condemnation,” are you referring to the Adamic curse or the Mosaic Law? Do you agree that Jesus was perfect and sinless and therefore hypothetically, if he had died in an accident prior to his baptism, he would not have been condemned to eternal death?
Do you feel confident that people who have died in unbelief or lacking knowledge of Jesus Christ are eternally destroyed? Are you open to the possibility of a future judgement period and opportunity for accepting Jesus as their savior after the general resurrection of mankind on earth in the future?
You mention that living with out sin according to law would allow for life everlasting, it would. But you forget God’s will. Jesus was not sent to save himself, which would have made it an attempt to grasp life apart from God’s will, comparable again to Satan.
Yes Travelor, I agree. I was just expanding on the topic. However, on another point, I would like to ask you if you see any possibilties for unblelivers to have a future judgment opporuntiy to accetpt Jesus as indicated at this link? https://www.beyondwatchtower.com/2011/03/19/two-salvations-a-ransom-for-all/
I wish I did, but if you do not call on jesus God must respect your choice made with free will. It is sad that something that is so fundamental in realities as right and wrong really costs so many lives amongst the confuse of those deceived. Satan chose well. Eve was deceived but probably had the stronger mind. She was as we say capable of thinking out side of the box. You would expect our Father to give more in a partner than expected. But Adam was just weak, he put his desire for Eve ahead of his connection with his Father. It seems most appropriate that those wo caused the most damage, women, would t a ke the lead in the life saving work as described in the Bible, a large Amy of women.
Travelor,
I take the verses below to mean that God will have a special heavenly salvation for beleivers, but that he also has a salvation plan for the rest of the world. This makes sense since 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV and 1 Tim 2:4 says, God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
God did come to the rescue of all men/humanity when he sent his on to reconcile mankind to himself. He did wand all who wanted to come to life,to do that. He never wished for this reality of the realities to be in the first place. JESUS ransom price did cover the sins of the world. Now it’s our chance to “come” , to make our minds “UP”. Remember the original home given to mankind. The one to be put in order again.
“Let your kingdom” that’s us and the desire to be one with God which needs the pouring out of the spirit on us to give increased mental capacity so we can cover distance “UP” the path. “Let your will be done on earth as it is in heaven.”
JESUS is coming down, back, to rule “over the earth with the new Jerusalem, the 144000 which he will “call” “UP”.
Getting, tent, house, mansion, temple, house of God, firmly in mind as the state of mind on the”WAY” to oneness of mind, with God is essential to an understanding of the “nature of what,is” as I say. The Bible and reality are about frame of mind. Adam,lost it, a n abroad frame of mind, Jesus was sent to regain it, and show us the WAY to all so. Living in another dimension was never part of the plan for us. Studying the word Heaven it’s use and translations miss use helps once you have the general story line in hand, a frame work of reference to what needs to be achieved in our exercise of understanding/faith.
“Let your kingdom come” refers to our making progress up the path. It means we have a desire for the spirit of understanding to be poured out on us. Adam lost approved frame of mind. We must regain it. And last tent,house,mansion,temple, city(new Jerusalem),house of God, all reference a certain frame of mind,personally, and as a group, at differing levels of awareness.
Hi Travelor – Thanks for your response. I see that you are focusing on a unified process where all are invited to progress spiritually and that you agree that salvation is available to all, but you emphasize the need for active participation in spiritual growth. I agree with you, however I beleive that for the unbelieving world of mankind, an instruction, learning and repentance opportunity exists in the future kingdom of God on earth.
Time of Teaching & Learning
Isa 29:18, 24 – Deaf will hear, blind will see. Those who erred will understand.
Isa 26:9 – “when Your judgments are in the earth, The inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.”
Isa 11:9-10 – “the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, As the waters cover the sea.”
Mic 4:1-2 – “Many nations shall say, “Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.”
Isa 35:8 – “The way of holiness… shall be for (the redeemed)…fools, shall not err (therein).” ASV
ALL People will Worship & Serve God
Phil 2:9-11 – EVERY knee should bow…and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
Rev 15:4 – all nations shall come and worship before You..” NKJV
Dan 7:14, 27 – “ALL peoples, nations, and languages should serve Him” His kingdom is everlasting
Isa 66:23 – all flesh come to worship before me, saith Jehovah. ASV
Ps 22:27 – “ all the families of the nations Shall worship before You.” NKJV
Ps 138:4 – “All the kings of the earth shall praise You, O LORD “ NKJV
Ps 72:8,11,17 – “all kings shall fall down before Him; All nations shall serve Him” NKJV
Rev 11:15 – “kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord… He shall reign forever”
Rev 21:23-24 – “the nations shall walk amidst the light thereof: and the kings … bring their glory into it.” Mal 1:11 “My name shall be great among the Gentiles; In every place incense shall be offered to” God
(see also Ps 86:9; Ps 65:1-2; Zech 2:11; Zech 9:10)
Rev 5:13 – “And every creature … heard I saying, Blessing, and honor…to… the Lamb for ever” AKJV
My understanding now does not allow for the possibility you hold. But learning means testing daily. I’ll think through the direction you are suggesting brother.
No Worries Traveler. We enjoy Christian liberty and respect for each other.
Hi Peter, I read through your train of thought. While all sorts are to be saved, this was covered when we discussed the possible ones saved before christ or possibly those who are forgiven by living the law within themselves, a long shot I think. We looked “if the righteous man is being saved with difficulty, where will the unrighteous man make a showing.” The life and death aspect of reality rules out those who do not call on christ finding life. It clearly states that Jesus is given authority over those left in the grave after the Twinkly those awaiting the coming destruction. So it is normal to wise all to be saved. By this mankind’s second chance. But if one does not cross from death to life in this system there is no chance to in the next thousand year system. That is why this work of sharing the good news is so important. The witness’s took up this all get saved now or have a chance later, with a twist. They stated or maybe still do, that if you are never approached with the truth you’ll have a chance in the thousand years. I pointed out that since it’s know that most will not except the JW witness, it means that they would be conducting a life taking work. Surely with physical proof in the thousand years and the apocalypse behind the odds would be increased that many more might stand erect. As you can guess that came across well. No the Bible is quite clean no third changes. The call from the bride those sons recieving a one part share with Jesus to rule earth as breast’s and kings will certainly play a part in teaching on the upwould path having a higher awareness shared as the bride of christ. They too again do not have a promise of living in a nother dimension. Satan is said to be the god of the air in this system. This means he controls or motivates the minds of mankind in general. Jesus becomes the god of the air taking control from Satan. The 144,000, the bide class, meet Jesus in this new frame of mind, or in the air, on his return, again as we discussed in the event, the twinkly.
Thanks Traveler. You make some good points.
Yes, I agree there are no third chances in the 1,000 years. My view is the only people under eternal judgement before the resurrection during the 1,000 years are those that were baptized into Christ and received the Holy Spirit. Yes, God brings consequences and retribution for all evil, but for the ultimate purpose of rehabilitation. After the resurrection, that will be the eternal judgement period for mankind. The Bride Class you mentioned will rule over them, subordinate to Jesus. When “the knowledge of the LORD covers the earth as the waters cover the seas” (Habakkuk 2:14) there will be no excuse for evil. Then the wicked will be eternally destroyed, which will hopefully be a very small percentage of mankind.
1 Peter 4:18—“And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?”—is a sobering reminder of the narrowness of the path to life, even for the faithful. This verse I suggest is emphasizing the rigorous testing and refining that the righteous must undergo during their earthly probation, during the Gospel Age.
The “righteous” refers to those who have accepted Christ and are striving to walk in obedience and consecration. Their salvation is “scarcely” achieved not because God is unwilling, but because the path requires endurance, self-denial, and faithfulness under trial. This aligns with his broader teaching that the Church is being developed as the “little flock” who will reign with Christ in the Millennial Age.
As for “the ungodly and the sinner,” this is not a declaration of eternal destruction. Instead, such individuals will face judgment in the future—specifically during the Millennial Age—when they would have a full, fair opportunity to learn righteousness under Christ’s Kingdom. In that sense, 1 Peter 4:18 serves as both a warning to the consecrated and a foreshadowing of future accountability for the rest of humanity.
These are my suggestions. Thanks for your insights.
Hi Petter, sorry I’ve been very busy but thought I’d share my first general thought about those how do not call on Jesus getting another chance under Christ’s new system.
It seems illogical on its face that Jesus or those following him while he lived and in the immediate years after, would take a stand, often leading to torture and death if they thought they could just wait and take advantage of the next system where ther would be no pain or out cry. I mean sawn asunder or wait.
I will try to soon go through the scriptures you’ve listed showing how each fits into a logical framework. I enjoy your depth of thought though brother.
Hi Traveler,
I am glad that in your busy schedule you are still interested in continuing the conversation as you are able.
I would like to respond to the excellent question you raised about why wouldn’t Jesus followers escape suffering and just wait for the kingdom.
Those who followed Jesus during his earthly ministry and shortly thereafter were responding to a heavenly invitation—not merely waiting for earthly relief. He taught that:
– The Gospel Age was a special time when God was selecting a “little flock” (Luke 12:32) to be joint-heirs with Christ in the heavenly Kingdom.
– This calling required faithfulness unto death (Revelation 2:10), and suffering was a refining process to prepare the saints for glory (Romans 8:17–18) and responsibilities as earth’s future judges, priests and kings under Jesus, their head judge, priest and king.
– The future earthly Kingdom would be for the general blessing of mankind, but the Church’s role was to be part of the ruling class with Christ—hence the urgency and sacrifice.
Here are some key texts to support this view:
| Romans 8:17–18 | Suffering with Christ – Suffering is a prerequisite for glorification
| Revelation 2:10 | Faithfulness unto death – The crown of life is given to those who endure
| 2 Timothy 2:12 | Reigning with Christ – Endurance leads to co-rulership
| Luke 12:32 | The “little flock” – A select group called during the Gospel Age
| Acts 14:22 | Tribulation before the Kingdom – Entry into the Kingdom requires hardship
| Philippians 3:14 | High calling – A prize that demands pressing forward despite trials
Waiting passively for the Kingdom would mean missing the opportunity to be part of the first resurrection (Revelation 20:6), which is the reward for those who were faithful during the Gospel Age.
The idea of “just waiting” would miss the entire purpose of the Christian calling:
– The Church is being tested now, while the world will be blessed later.
– Those who suffer now are being prepared to bless others in the future (Galatians 3:29).
– The Kingdom is not merely a refuge, but a government of co-rulers, and that role requires that they are sanctified (become holy, pure, righteous)) through trial.
Trying to get in touch with where we left off.
The Bible states “the thinking man is hated”. All are anointed by the information of Jesus held. Jesus was anointed as his brothers it just says with more. The same case will be when the 144,000 are chosen.
The UPward call, or as some say the heavenly calling, is the call everyone hears to pursue the UPward path of reason laid out by Jesus as a beginning. All will suffer, all most remain faithful to death. The one exception is those alive when the end comes.
Jesus secured the promise of a resurrection that results in a return to existence. Jesus was the first one, the first fruit of this first resurrection returning those in the grave at the Twinkling back to existence. The second resurrection result of course are those who without ever returning to existence. Having not called on christ to do so, are cast into the lake of fire. The 144,000 are the least among humanity, fitting kings and priests. The stiff necked nation of Israel never got that God was making himself strong with that which is weak. Obviously they were some of the weakest on earth. Yes we are thankful for the real, the true Jews who served in humility and humbled themselves,so that the promises could be carried forward. Looking at the choosing, it’s interesting to note that the new nation created by Jesus, or through Jesus in the new order will still have tribes. We know that really only a relatively small number left the nation of Israel, and that there are those grafted in to this number. But “tribe” must have to do with the orderly running this new nation.
The new order will be the last possibility to be explored, a large number of people, enlightened during the Twinkling so they rise, are lifted UP to a perfect frame of mind, one with Jesus and God. There really is no possibility that those who did not call on Jesus and through him the promises, having never experienced the adoption, the “recieving of the “token of adoptive spirit”, and the full adoption through the event of the Twinkling, to be present in an area with out pain and suffering. The pat follows logic. Investigating the term “heaven” and it’s different means will help to some degree. Remembering that the authors of the Bible and the translators did not have a clear understanding of what they were seeing or what they were receiving helps us to see the need to keep our “eyes” fixed on the “unseen thing” the reality behind the words. Only with a fixed veiw, framework of this reality, God’s reality can we come to understand the importance of God’s statement “this Way leads to life.
Hi Traveler – I think you’re describing the transformative power of Jesus’ teachings and sacrifice, the hope of resurrection, and the establishment of a divine new order led by the humble and faithful, particularly the 144,000 (Revelation 7:4-8). You emphasize reason, faithfulness, and spiritual adoption (Romans 8:15) as essential for life in God’s kingdom, while warning that those who reject Christ face destruction in the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14-15). The ‘Twinkling’ (1 Corinthians 15:52) is important in your explanation of the resurrection, where the faithful are transformed.
You have not addressed scriptures I cited as evidence that unbelievers will awaken in a future resurrection and have an opportunity to repent and accept Jesus. Would you agree or do your see their fate as sealed?
For me the best way for me to understand an answer is to respond “yes” or “no” then to followup with an explanation, otherwise sometimes it is difficult to be sure I understood the answer from the explanation. Thanks.
“1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth”
When God sent his son to reconcile humanity, God became the Savior of all. He is the Savior in that he made approach to God possible for any who would come to him. So in this sense God was a savior to those who pursued to gain life. Those who crossed from death to life are reminded that all can come. Remember the nation of Israel were and are a stiff necked people, thinking that they alone were Gods only people.
“1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV”
“Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]”
Actually the call is towards those that “desire”, those that pursue receive the spirit and the coming help of the bride. The prayer goes, “let your kingdom come” those who pursue, are under Gods influence through Jesus.. you know the rest.
“Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV”
The creation, the angels , await the new creations being delivered in the event of the Twinkling when that which is corruptible receives the full compliment of their inheritance and becomes incorruptible, a “new creation”.
“1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV”
The idea was brought up once that maybe we should go on sinning to make God’s forgiveness greater. Of course this was illogical. But 1 peter express’s the logical view that the persecution of those who maintain a firm stand will on inspection glorify God.
(1 Peter 1:3-4) 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for according to his great mercy he gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an incorruptible and undefiled and unfading inheritance. It is reserved in the heavens for YOU. . .
We see that the promise to inherit the earth was now through the resurrection of Jesus reserved in heaven by Jesus taking up his kingship. Mankind outside of Jesus has never been called/invited to come to heaven.
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
(2 Thessalonians 1:6-10) 6 This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for YOU, 7 but, to YOU who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among YOU.
Clearly points out no second chance in a new order for those who do not call on Gods name through Christ.
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
We’ve talked already about the fact that Jesus reconciled us to God with his sacrifice, but we must pursue for the forgiveness of our own sins, as each of us sin’s in his own turn. So the word of the reconciliation, or words explaining the nature of the opportunity needed to be explained.
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
We know that we are the building blocks of a new house of God. Jesus is the corner stone. We just pointed out the word of the reconciliation was to go out.
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
(Romans 11:25-32) . . .For I do not want YOU, brothers, to be ignorant of this sacred secret, in order for YOU not to be discreet in your own eyes: that a dulling of sensibilities has happened in part to Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in, 26 and in this manner all Israel will be saved. Just as it is written: “The deliverer will come out of Zion and turn away ungodly practices from Jacob. 27 And this is the covenant on my part with them, when I take their sins away.” 28 True, with reference to the good news they are enemies for YOUR sakes, but with reference to [God’s] choosing they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are not things he will regret. 30 For just as YOU were once disobedient to God but have now been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31 so also these now have been disobedient with mercy resulting to YOU, that they themselves also may now be shown mercy. 32 For God has shut them all up together in disobedience, that he might show all of them mercy.
We know that the “Nation of Israel” were disobedient to such an extent that the kingdom of God was taken from them. We also know that on the rejection of Jesus as king by the Nation, Jesus set about preaching the good news to the “son’s of Israel” Israel having no reference to the “Nation of” but to the offspring of Abraham by frame of mind, now the son’s of Israel by frame of mind. With a long standing pride in their relationship with God, some took more time to realize what was happening in their age, before following Jesus.
In all of these scriptures I see no reference to two “hopes” or two paths to salvation. One still must accept the opportunity of the reconciliation that paid humanity’s debt for Adams sin. Then we must become a footstep, or logical pursuer of the same direction that Jesus did to secure our personal hope of a resurrection result, of return to existence on earth. No where in the Bible is there any promise, of provision, for a new home in Heaven.
Thank you, Traveler, for your thoughtful reflections. I appreciate your emphasis on the necessity of faith and obedience in Christ for salvation. However, I still hold that the Scriptures point to a future resurrection of all—both just and unjust (Acts 24:15)—and that God’s redemptive plan includes an opportunity for unbelievers to come to know Christ in the age to come.
For example, Revelation 22:17 offers a universal invitation: “Let the one who is thirsty come,” which I understand as extending even to those who have not yet believed. Similarly, 1 John 2:2 speaks of Christ as the atoning sacrifice “not only for our sins but also for the sins of the whole world.” These and other passages suggest to me that the door of mercy remains open beyond this present life for those who never truly knew Him.
Would you say that all who died in ignorance of Christ are eternally lost? Or might they, too, be among those who “hear His voice” and “come out” in the resurrection (John 5:28-29)?
I’d be grateful for a simple “yes” or “no” to that question, followed by your thoughts, if you’re willing.
No. “Let those who thirst” action, the water of life came with Jesus and was preached to the ,”sea”, the entire inhabited earth at the time. You are right all will be resurrected, in other words stand before God. We are in the age of judgement. Those who call on God in Jesus name are never judged, those who don’t, are already judged. Those that never knew Jesus are the result of mankind’s actions, not God’s. They live out life with the hopes they entertain. Those that pursue the information that Jesus revealed receive ears to hear eyes to see, through adoptive spirit. People of all the nations have come. With the complete failure of humanities attempts to govern themselves leading to the distorting of the earth. Everyone will learn God is right. Everyone will obviously include those born in the new system, who learn from the witness’s from the old one, I beleive through perfect language.once mankind took control of its fate through Adam and Eve’s actions or more accurately thinking, it was not God’s responsibility to force his will on mankind. So if you now “see” that mankind’s direction leads to some never getting a chance to “live”, you can understand the terrible price Adam’s offspring are paying in there resurrection to judgment. Since they enter the grave already judged, the resurrection to “judgement” simply states the completion of their actions,and responsibility, not Gods.
Traveler,
I am appreciate your earnest reflections and your zeal for the truth of God’s Word. Your emphasis on the preaching of the gospel and the responsibility of mankind in this present age is well noted, and I commend your desire to uphold the righteousness of our Heavenly Father. Allow me, in a spirit of Christian fellowship, to offer some thoughts in response, particularly regarding the fate of those who have died in ignorance of our Lord Jesus Christ.
You rightly note that the “water of life” was offered through our Lord’s ministry and the preaching of the gospel to the nations. Yet, I would humbly submit that the Scriptures reveal a broader scope to God’s merciful plan. In Acts 24:15, we read of a resurrection of both the just and the unjust, which suggests a divine purpose for all mankind to stand before God. Our Lord’s words in John 5:28-29 further affirm that all in their graves shall hear His voice and come forth—some to a resurrection of life, and others to a resurrection of judgment. This judgment, I believe, is not merely a confirmation of past condemnation but an opportunity for enlightenment, repentance and judgement.
The invitation of Revelation 22:17, “Let the one who is thirsty come,” is a precious promise offered by the “(Holy) Spirt and the Bride.” This is the Bride of Christ in heaven in the future, not a missed opportunity in the past. The Apostle John declares in 1 John 2:2 that Christ is the propitiation “not for our sins only, but also for the sins of the whole world.” This “whole world” must include the billions who, through no fault of their own, have never heard the name of Jesus. Shall we conclude that our just and loving Creator would condemn such ones eternally without granting them a full opportunity to know and accept the ransom sacrifice of His Son? I believe the Scriptures teach otherwise.
In God’s great plan, as I understand it, the Millennial Age—the thousand-year reign of Christ—will be a time of restitution (Acts 3:21). During this period, the knowledge of Jehovah will fill the earth as the waters cover the sea (Isaiah 11:9). Those who died in ignorance, never having had a fair chance to accept Christ, will be raised to learn of Him under the favorable conditions of that kingdom. Their judgment will then be based on their response to the truth, not on their ignorance in this life. Thus, while mankind’s fall through Adam brought death to all, God’s mercy through Christ ensures that all may have an opportunity for life (Romans 5:18-19).
To your point regarding mankind’s responsibility, I fully agree that Adam’s disobedience brought a heavy price upon his offspring. Yet, God’s justice does not hold individuals accountable for what they could not know. Rather, His plan provides for a future time when all will be taught, and each will bear responsibility for their own choices (Ezekiel 18:20). The failure of human governance, as you aptly note, only underscores the necessity of Christ’s kingdom, wherein all will learn that Jehovah’s way is right.
Those who died in ignorance of Christ are not eternally lost. They, too, shall hear His voice in the resurrection and be granted an opportunity to drink of the water of life. This, I believe, is the glorious hope revealed in God’s Word—a hope that magnifies His justice, mercy, and love.
I welcome your further thoughts, dear brother, and pray that we may continue to search the Scriptures together, growing in the knowledge of our Heavenly Father’s perfect plan.
Hi Peter. I’m having trouble.navigating the site . I see the latest comment but when I tape on your answer it takes me to the first. Comment O made. Dah help please, foing this on my phone for now
Travelor – Yes, it is difficult to navigate. In the right panel, you can try clicking on “See More Latest Comments” in red font, just below “Latest Comments” and above “Recent Posts.”
Hi Peter, reading over some of your postsI think the problem lies in the term resurrection
Resurrection just means to stand or have your stand in front of Yahweh. Resurrection has nothing to do with consciousness or the return to life, but is a process by which one’s reword is given according to one’s actions in this system or if one has called on Jesus’s name a reward of a return to life.the information gained as a footstep followers is a seed odor of information leading to life in your mind, to God, but to death if it is ignored or absent.
The path is narrow and few find it. By this statement along we see the broad path taken by the majority in this system. While I applaud your search for a way to save everyone, it is already laid out by God and is quite clearly. I see that the average person wants so badly that their loved ones be able to have another chance that the burden of the realization that it’s not up to God may be more than they can carry. I beleive that is why the witness’s and many religions have given in and backed off making this clear. Who can say how much still needs to be hidden.
Hi Traveler – I appreciate your thoughtful message and your obvious desire to rightly divide the word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15). May I kindly offer a few scriptural thoughts in response?
You mentioned that the resurrection is simply to “stand” before Yahweh, not necessarily a return to consciousness or life. However, the Scriptures speak of resurrection (anastasis in Greek) quite plainly as a raising up from death—a restoration of life, not merely a judgment scene.
Jesus Himself said:
“The hour is coming in which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice and shall come forth…” (John 5:28–29)
Surely, those “in the graves” are unconscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5,10), and for them to “hear” and “come forth” implies a return to conscious life. This agrees with Jesus’ promise to Martha that Lazarus would “rise again,” not merely stand in judgment, but return to life (John 11:23–25).
You also mentioned that the path is narrow and few find it. I completely agree—the high calling to be part of the Bride of Christ is indeed a narrow way, requiring full consecration, self-denial, and faithfulness unto death (Revelation 2:10). This calling is for the Church now.
However, the Scriptures also declare a broader plan for all mankind in due time. Paul wrote:
“As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” (1 Corinthians 15:22).
And again:
“God our Savior… will have all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3–6).
This is not a universal salvation without repentance, but rather a universal opportunity—after being awakened in the resurrection age—to know the truth, be judged righteously, and choose life. This is the “restitution of all things” spoken by the prophets (Acts 3:21).
So yes, the way is narrow now—for the Church—but the highway of holiness (Isaiah 35:8) will be open to the world in the age to come, under the reign of Christ and His glorified Bride. This is the beauty of the divine plan: a ransom for all, testified in due time.
Hi Peter, once we cross from death to life it states that we are not to be judged and those who don’t cross are already judged. True there will be no test in the thousand years because God does not have a need to, no sin. Yes as Adam we could chose a direction against God but it would result inimmediate death. Every tear is wiped because for the thousand years stain will not be allowed to affect humanities mind.
Hi Traveler – Thanks for some deep thoughts. I enjoyed looking up some of the scriptures I think you had in mind:
John 5:24 “- “Whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life”.
John 3:18 – “Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already…”
Revelation 20:4–6, mentions that the saints reign with Christ for a thousand years during a time of peace and righteousness, with Satan bound and unable to deceive the nations
Revelation 21:4 – “He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain…”
Jeremiah 31:33 and Hebrews 8:10 state that God will write His law on their minds and hearts
I enjoy your manner of reply,very patient and loving. I beleive that the grasp of the level of suffering in this system should help us realize that allowing it to happen again in another system would be cruel, illogical. I visited a hospital wing for kids with cancer recently. Just walking down the long hall leading to it as parents with their children in wheelchairs holding stuffed animals was to much. What a kingdom of Christ’s new order would be like if those parents had to watch their kids fail and die in the next life would be like, well, just a small thought. The question is well answered in this system.
Traveler,
Good point. Let me suggest the possibility that in the future paradise kingdom on earth, which we can call “another system,” the outcome would be much more favorable for resurrected humanity, because the Truths of God’s righeous kingdome will be so clear, that even a fool would understand.
Isaiah 35:8: (ESV) And a highway shall be there, and it shall be called the Way of Holiness; the unclean shall not pass over it. It shall belong to those who walk on the way; even if they are fools, they shall not go astray.
The Truth on this Way of Holiness will be so clear that even fools shall not go astray.
Once the blindness is removed after Satan is bound (restrained) during the 1,000 years (see Revelation 20:2), everyone will know God and the gospel message. At that time and in that kingdom on earth, the Scriptures say:
John 1:9: (NASB) This was the true Light (Jesus) that, coming into the world, enlightens every person. The fulfilment of this scripture must be in the future because every person has not yet been enlightened.
Once the veil of blindness, ignorance, superstition and deception is removed, mankind will be ready and anxious to learn all about God’s righteous principles in His future kingdom on earth.
Isaiah 29:18,24: In that day the deaf shall hear the words of the book, and the eyes of the blind shall see out of obscurity and out of darkness. These also who erred in spirit will come to understanding, and those who complained will learn doctrine.
Isaiah 26:9: …For when Your judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Isaiah 11:9-10: They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the waters cover the sea. And in that day there shall be a Root of Jesse (Jesus), who shall stand as a banner to the people; for the Gentiles shall seek him, and his resting place shall be glorious.
Micah 4:1-2: Now it shall come to pass in the latter days that the mountain of the LORD’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow to it. Many nations shall come and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, and we shall walk in His paths. For out of Zion the law shall go forth, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
Learning will come from the house of the God of Jacob (Israel). Out of Zion…from Jerusalem will the Lord speak and teach.
Jeremiah 31:33-34: (KJV) But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be My people. And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know Me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Hebrews 8:11: None of them shall teach his neighbor, and none his brother, saying, Know the LORD, for all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them.
The idea that even a fool could follow addresses the differing levels of intelligence in the new “system”. No one is taught by his brother shows the result of the “Twinkling” and it’s clearing of the eyes of the great cloud of witnesses. Witnesses of what? Well the answered conclusion of the old system of Satan. Jesus and the 144,000 “bought from the earth” a reference to our group of beings made of earth, humanity as a whole, will teach us as a newly formed awareness above us, new Jerusalem. Thinking that those who stood against or those who just decided to not call on the name of God and his son, is a statement of a second asking of the outcome of this old system. There is a natural condition to “our savior” as a statement that leaves no room for those causing the need to be saved, to also be saved by second chance or other means. Lose of life was set clearly out in the first place, in the day that you eat, you will die. If you beleive in him you will be preserved alive, live. Those that make it into the new system need never die because they no longer “sin”. This is not a second try kingdom for those left outside of God’s Way. Love means logic in God’s Way leading to life must stand alone. Against other options.
Hi Traveler. There is always a LOT to unpack in your responses. You are always pulling from various Bible verses and concepts to weave a story and an answer. It is fun to try to look up and match the verses you are alluding to. Let me focus on for me what is the meat of your answer. You are making the point that there are NO second chances. God’s love is expressed through a logical, consistent system of justice and salvation. Choosing God’s way (through faith in Christ) is the only path to life, with no alternative routes.
Yes, I agree, except with your limitation that mankinds only opportunity for eternal life is to accept Jesus NOW as their Savior in this life before the resurrection. Or at least you are saying that if they did not take advantage of a clear opportunity in this life, they are FINISHED. It is over for them. No future opportunity. This presumes that God is judging mankind now. The denominational Christian world agrees with you on this, even though at the same time they talk about FUTURE judgement.
Revelation 20 (NASV95)
11 ¶ Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them.
12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds.
Why can this judgment not be based on thier progress and behavior during the 1,000 years?
I would like to repost what I provided on June 12 which affirms that unbeleivers will have a future opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior.
I take the verses below to mean that God will have a special heavenly salvation for beleivers, but that he also has a salvation plan for the rest of the world. This makes sense since 2 Peter 3:9 says, “The Lord is … longsuffering …not wishing that any should perish” ASV and 1 Tim 2:4 says, God “desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
1 John 2:2 – “He is an atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. – Weymouth
1 Tim 4:10 – God…is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe. NKJV
Rev 22:17 – “the bride say, “Come!”… Whoever desires, let him take the water of life freely. NKJV
[An invitation to unbelieving mankind on Paradise Earth.]
Rom 8:19,21 – “the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God… also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God NKJV
1 Peter 2:12 – “Gentiles… they may, by your good works… glorify God in the day of visitation.” NKJV
2 Thess 1:10 – He comes to be glorified in His saints & admired among all those who believe NKJV
2 Cor 5:19 – God reconciling the world to Himself & committed to us the word of reconciliation. NKJV
Acts 15:16-17 – I will rebuild tabernacle of David, So that the rest of mankind may seek LORD, NKJV
Rom 11:30 – through mercy shown you [Gentile Christians], they [Jews] also may obtain mercy NKJV
Seems my last two posts never showed up. I’ll keep trying.
Hi Travelor. None of your posts are in the spam folder. I am sorry I missed recent posts. The last post I have from you starts “Hi Petter, sorry I’ve been very busy…”
I am so glad I more or less stumbled on this site. It is interesting to note that there are still those out there who do not realize that the Jehovah’s Witnesses are a splinter group from the IBSA. This mostly comes from people reading the JW literature and seeing this as the actual history of JW. Websites like this should set the record straight. If they care to take a look and learn.
The us dollar or Federal reserve note its value will be wiped out mostly this will cause a lot of people to go homeless and worse. the only way people in this world will make is the love of God. and the love of People. I am a anointed Jehovah’s witness please take this seriously. store up small amounts of supplies. over the next six months. Bible studies will be done in the home for most people during the time of our next world wide sickness. depend on Christ and Jehovah in prayer to guide you all to make good decisions. if you have give and it will be given you. get out of false religion thinking. but truth in your mind. May the love of our lord Jesus Christ and Jehovah be with you all please pray for healing of human kind and our earth.
Hello Peter
I am nearing 60 and was born, raised, and spent most of my life as a jW. Only in the last few years have my eyes been opened. I have written several articles and was wondering if you were interested. They are found here:
http://da.getmyip.com/PDF/Ramblings
yb
Dave
Thanks for sharing your link. Feel free to share your thoughts and start a discussion here. We like to discuss scriptures.
I love Jehovah and can see the kingdom of God. KD altavista virginia
Thanks. The kingdom of God is what we look forward to: “And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.” Rev 21:4 AV
Kingdom of God was present when Jesus was alive. He gave the upward calls message, present yourself, with your power of reason. He laid out the path of reason, in steps of reason. This is why those of the right frame of mind, the true Jew became footstep followers and in doing so we’re removed from the nation of Israel. Yes no Jews left in the Nation. Once you realize that in reality and the Bible frame of mind is everything, you can approach the “Great cloud of witnesses and understand the “Twinkling “.
Thanks Traveler. Would you like to explain the “Twinkling?”
Hi Peter. The Twinkling is an event in our future. Approach grasping it this Way. Lost approved frame of mind in the garden and the inheritance from the Father, God,of a complete quantity of active force, holy spirit. It’s this inheritance that gave mental capacity to acquire and exercise oneness of mind with our Father.
So we now need to make our minds over, UP. How can we do this? Well Jesus “reconciled ” humanity in relation to God by delivering the ransom for our Father, God. This means we can again approach God and ask to be forgiven our own personal sin so we can enter a adoption as children of our Father. So again we can make our minds over, UP, using the now given “token” of inherited active force/spirit, given on adoption. Jesus showed us a “WAY” to use this force on what was described as the UPward path,or to heed the UPward call.
This UPward path is taken by following the steps of reason Jesus revealed. This process of acquiring a oneness of mind with Jesus and our Father through progress UP the path is headed towards the full adoption at the event called tht “Twinkling”.
We see now in a “hazy outline” so we are called the ” great cloud of witnesses “. At the Twinkling, we receive our full inheritance of active force with its mind expanding capacity. This change in our nature allows us to fully comprehend/see Jesus and be seen by Jesus. Jesus “arrives in the “clouds” or minds of the great cloud of witnesses, the Twinkling event. We can assume it’s described this way because of the comparison between the event and the coming awarenesses from our Father.
Hi Travel,
The description you provided appears to reference several biblical concepts and scriptures, particularly from the New Testament, while incorporating some interpretive or theological language that may not directly quote specific verses but alludes to them. Below, I’ll identify the key scriptural connections based on the themes and phrases in your description, focusing on the Bible (using a standard translation like the New International Version or King James Version for reference).
Key Themes and Corresponding Scriptures:
The Twinkling Event:
The phrase “Twinkling” likely refers to the event described in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52:
“Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.” (NIV)
This passage speaks of a future transformation of believers, often associated with the resurrection or rapture, where mortal bodies are changed into imperishable ones. Your description of the “Twinkling” as a future event involving a change in nature and receiving a “full inheritance” aligns closely with this scripture.
Lost Frame of Mind in the Garden:
The reference to losing an “approved frame of mind in the garden” points to the Fall of Man in Genesis 3, where Adam and Eve’s disobedience resulted in separation from God and the loss of their original state of harmony and communion with Him. This is implied rather than directly quoted, but the concept of losing an “inheritance” of oneness with God fits this narrative.
Inheritance of Active Force/Holy Spirit:
The idea of an “inheritance” of the Holy Spirit connects to several New Testament passages:
Ephesians 1:13-14:
“And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession…” (NIV)
This speaks of the Holy Spirit as a “deposit” or “token” (as you mentioned) of the future full inheritance, which aligns with your description of receiving an active force upon adoption.
Romans 8:15-17 also ties in:
“The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship… and co-heirs with Christ…” (NIV)
This supports the idea of adoption as children of God and receiving an inheritance.
Jesus’ Reconciliation and Ransom:
The description of Jesus “reconciling” humanity through a “ransom” directly refers to scriptures like:
1 Timothy 2:5-6:
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all people…” (NIV)
Colossians 1:19-20:
“For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, and through him to reconcile to himself all things… by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.” (NIV)
These passages explain how Jesus’ sacrifice restores the relationship between humanity and God, enabling believers to approach God for forgiveness and adoption.
Making Our Minds Over, UP:
The concept of transforming or renewing the mind is found in Romans 12:2:
“Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.” (NIV)
Your description of “making our minds over, UP” aligns with this call to spiritual transformation and aligns with achieving oneness with God’s will.
The Upward Path/Call:
The “UPward path” or “UPward call” directly echoes Philippians 3:13-14:
“…Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.” (NIV)
The “heavenward” or “upward call” (as translated in some versions) matches your description of a path of spiritual progress toward oneness with God and Jesus.
Great Cloud of Witnesses:
The phrase “great cloud of witnesses” is a direct reference to Hebrews 12:1:
“Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us…” (NIV)
Your description ties this to believers seeing “in a hazy outline” and progressing toward the Twinkling, suggesting a connection between the witnesses (faithful believers) and the future transformation.
Seeing Jesus in the Clouds:
The imagery of Jesus “arriving in the clouds” connects to 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17:
“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven… and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air…” (NIV)
Additionally, Revelation 1:7 states:
“Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him…” (NIV)
Your description of Jesus arriving in the “clouds” or minds of the witnesses may be an interpretive blend of these verses with the idea of spiritual enlightenment or transformation at the Twinkling.
Seeing in a Hazy Outline:
The phrase “we see now in a hazy outline” likely alludes to 1 Corinthians 13:12:
“For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.” (NIV)
This verse speaks of incomplete understanding now, contrasted with full comprehension in the future, which fits your description of the Twinkling as a moment of receiving full mental capacity and seeing Jesus clearly.
Analysis and Summary:
Well said. The truth is hidden because it’s in the langauge, the conceptual images that inspired the words. Remember that the expressions recorded were a conversation for those who are given eyes to see and ears to hear by God through Jesus revealed steps of logic. The author often not actually understanding what he was recording because it’s meaning was meant for ears generations later.
Keeping your eye on the unseen things is key. Humanity was meant to have continued existence by pursue a certain direction, as God also does. While there is much to that statement it connects simply further up the path. Adam and Eve lost their relationship with their Father. God knew of this possibility when he shared information that allowed for free will. To re-enter the family relationship has always been the goal set for Adam’s and Eves children, humanity.
It is believed by meany that Jesus was sent to save the entire inhabited earth. What isn’t understood is he was, just not as they’ve envisioned.The Bible says Satan roamed about in earth. I always thought that was a strange way to put it. Then I realized we in slaves form are given a permanent house on crossing from death to life legally in our belief. We are dust/earth but are existing in our body’s as in a tent. It becomes a home with the promise of “the first resurrection “. Then Jesus returns to his Father and asks for the spirit of understanding/helper to be poured out to fill us with new awarenesses making our house a mansion. Each person in crossing from death to life receives a token of adoptive spirit which mean that the are no longer dead but now inhabit the earth, their body. the inheritance promised to Abraham’s offspring to inherit the earth. We are the offspring of Abraham mentally. So the entire inhabited earth.
The process of the return to, or I would say of the garden to its original state is clear in that we are God’s field under cultivation as adopted children.
The truth is simple and makes your paths straight, one step at a time.
Hi Travel – Your comments contain several concepts and phrases that appear to allude to various Bible verses, particularly from the New Testament, with some references to Old Testament themes. As it may be an additonal blessing to our readers, below, I’ll identify the likely Bible verses or passages being alluded to, based on your language and ideas presented, while keeping the response concise and focused.
“Eyes to see and ears to hear”
This phrase directly echoes Jesus’ teachings about spiritual perception, often used in the context of parables.
Possible Verses:
Matthew 13:16 – “But blessed are your eyes because they see, and your ears because they hear.”
Mark 4:9 – “Whoever has ears to hear, let them hear.”
Deuteronomy 29:4 (Old Testament precursor) – “But to this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see or ears that hear.”
The comment suggests that divine revelation through Jesus enables understanding of hidden truths, aligning with these verses.
“Keeping your eye on the unseen things”
This likely refers to focusing on spiritual or eternal realities rather than temporary, material ones.
Possible Verse:
2 Corinthians 4:18 – “So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.”
The emphasis on pursuing an eternal direction connects to this idea of prioritizing spiritual truths.
“Adam and Eve lost their relationship with their Father”
This alludes to the Fall in Genesis, where disobedience severed humanity’s direct communion with God.
Possible Verses:
Genesis 3:8-24 – Describes Adam and Eve’s expulsion from Eden, symbolizing the loss of their relationship with God.
Romans 5:12 – “Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned.”
The comment frames humanity’s goal as restoring this relationship, a common biblical theme.
“Jesus was sent to save the entire inhabited earth”
This points to Jesus’ redemptive mission, though the comment reinterprets it in a spiritual or metaphorical sense.
Possible Verses:
John 3:17 – “For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”
1 John 4:14 – “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world.”
The phrase “inhabited earth” may also connect to Revelation 12:9 (see below for Satan reference), where the earth is a domain of spiritual conflict.
“Satan roamed about in earth”
This directly references Satan’s activity on earth, often depicted as a tempter or adversary.
Possible Verse:
Job 1:7 – “The Lord said to Satan, ‘Where have you come from?’ Satan answered the Lord, ‘From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.’”
1 Peter 5:8 – “Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour.”
The comment’s phrasing suggests a metaphorical view of humanity’s earthly existence as influenced by spiritual forces.
“From death to life”
This phrase reflects the transition from spiritual death to eternal life through faith in Jesus.
Possible Verses:
John 5:24 – “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.”
Ephesians 2:1-5 – “As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins… But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, made us alive with Christ.”
The comment ties this to belief and adoption into God’s family.
“Our body’s as in a tent”
The imagery of the body as a temporary dwelling is a common biblical metaphor.
Possible Verse:
2 Corinthians 5:1 – “For we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.”
“Spirit of understanding/helper”
This likely refers to the Holy Spirit, described as a helper or advocate.
Possible Verses:
John 14:26 – “But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.”
John 16:13 – “But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth.”
The “mansion” imagery may also loosely connect to John 14:2 (“My Father’s house has many rooms”), though the comment uses it metaphorically for spiritual growth.
“Inheritance promised to Abraham’s offspring”
This alludes to the covenant with Abraham, extended to believers as his spiritual heirs.
Possible Verses:
Galatians 3:29 – “If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
Romans 4:13 – “It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.”
“God’s field under cultivation”
This imagery portrays believers as a field being cultivated by God, a biblical metaphor for spiritual growth.
Possible Verse:
1 Corinthians 3:9 – “For we are co-workers in God’s service; you are God’s field, God’s building.”
The restoration of the “garden” (Eden) aligns with themes of renewal, as in Revelation 21:1-5 (new heaven and new earth).
“The first resurrection”
This directly references the resurrection of believers, a key eschatological concept.
Possible Verse:
Revelation 20:5-6 – “The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection.”
“Makes your paths straight”
This echoes wisdom literature and teachings about divine guidance.
Possible Verse:
Proverbs 3:6 – “In all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight.”
Matthew 3:3 (quoting Isaiah 40:3) – “A voice of one calling in the wilderness, ‘Prepare the way for the Lord, make straight paths for him.’”
The comment uses this to emphasize simplicity and clarity in following God’s truth.
Summary
Your comments weave together a tapestry of biblical themes, including spiritual perception (Matthew 13:16), eternal focus (2 Corinthians 4:18), the Fall (Genesis 3), redemption through Jesus (John 3:17), the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), Abraham’s inheritance (Galatians 3:29), and eschatological hope (Revelation 20:5-6). You interpret these in a metaphorical, spiritualized way, emphasizing adoption into God’s family and the transformation of believers as the “inhabited earth.”
I have to ask, are you using AI to respond? While tone relates to sound or speech, it is a common mistake to beleive language does also. Language relates to the conceptual images behind the words. The Bible states you search the scriptures believing eternal life can be found among them. The problem is it won’t be found unless you “peer” into them. Frame of mind is and was what is important. It must be that the mind using the token gets a “sense” of direction. Meditating on that sensed direction, or a general holding of the information Jesus revealed relating to this direction, will start to add “UP” so at a certain point one can ponder the whole to achieve insight and a conclusion or stand. This process is taking the truth as your own. They Bible points out they go on learning and learning never able to come to an accurate conclusion. My experience is that “they” have no overview, no frame work that allows the logical ordering of the information received in the Bible. While the consideration of adoption goes a long way in explaining this overview it does not explain the deeper things such as why God pursues, or what information shared by God allowed for free will, the asking of a question or how a question exists in the “First” place.
While you evidently connect statements like God’s field under cultivation as a metaphor, in reality we being made of dust are literally being cultivated through mental manipulation. Much as Adam would have manipulated the growth of say the black mulberry tree.
Sorry that’s tongue not tone
I think the one thing bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses can agree on is that the 144000 is a government. its the interpretation of wicked slave is what leaders of the watchtower of today they disagree on. so bible students and Jehovah’s witnesses have separated them selves from each other on.
Yes, in Rev 7 we have 144,000 sealed out of the twelve tribes of (spiritual) Israel who are with the lamb on Mount Zion (compare Heb 12:22). In Rev 14, the 144,000 are described as redeemed, virgins, first fruits and are before the throne of God. These virgins become the bride of Christ (Rev 21:2), the heavenly government on the future Paradise Earth. Rutherford created a new organization called the Jehovah’s Witnesses and changed the doctrines. The Bible Students separated and continued with the original belief as independent congregations with no central control from a governing body and were then called evil slaves by the new organization. Do you have any further thoughts to share or questions? Feel fee to share.